[BNW] ICS Piety Empire (multiplayer edition) guide

[Free Gold]

In both posted MP games, you reported executing a CB rush against your neighbors. At what point in your usual build/settling order did you switch to building archers/CBs?

Basically the only time you want to CB rush your enemy is when he is A) going to CB rush you or B) you need his land. And by need, I mean that you have to stop settling - there is simply no more "viable" room for you to settle. That means that your capital stops spamming settlers, and this is when you start spamming comp bows in your capital. I try not to have my other cities work on comp bows, as they still need to get a shrine/temple up. If you still have room to settle but want to rush your opponent regardless, stop your usual build order in your other cities, and just go monument > comp bow spam.

On a side note; when rushing always get the +67 gold per city religion. You need this initial gold to upgrade your comp bows to xbows, before proceeding to demand tribute from city states for the rest of the funds.

 

[Monthar]

On a side note; when rushing always get the +67 gold per city religion. You need this initial gold to upgrade your comp bows to xbows, before proceeding to demand tribute from city states for the rest of the funds.

For those that don't know, this is the Initiation Rights founder belief on quick speed. On standard speed it's 100 gold. This is only when a city first converts. Yes you do get the cash for the capital conversion when you first found the religion. So with the 10 cities this guide talks about that that's 670 gold on quick speed (1000 on standard speed) very quickly as soon as all your cities start flipping. Plus the 67 (100) for each AI city or CS that flips.

 

[ScantilyCladLad]

after another playthrough im convinced gaining jesuit education is near impossible in SP using this strat.

Immortal difficulty, playing as ethiopia. I was in the midst of spamming cities with steles (up to about 8 or so) when the iriqouis got JE as their reformation belief on turn 58 (quick speed)

Every game i've tried the AI has gotten reformation too fast and always gets JE

i had filled only up to collective rule on liberty then was going to max piety, but was nowhere near close to reformation beliefs at that point

 

[ScantilyCladLad]

this strategy could also be interesting using holy warriors for domination games yeah?

 

[Monthar]

Instead of the Holy Warriors follower belief or the post industrial version in the reformation beliefs I'd take the one that has missionaries convert barbs. I tried that one out last night and the missionary only has to move next to a barb to convert it.

I found an island that had several AI caravels gathered around it for the barb camp. when my missionary got next to the island the barb warrior converted. Next turn I landed the missionary on the island under the warrior and it converted the crossbow in the camp clearing it and the swordsman next to the camp and warrior. So I got 3 units and the camp clearing gold for the cost of a single missionary, which could still be used to convert cities to my religion.

 

[Free Gold]

after another playthrough im convinced gaining jesuit education is near impossible in SP using this strat.

Immortal difficulty, playing as ethiopia. I was in the midst of spamming cities with steles (up to about 8 or so) when the iriqouis got JE as their reformation belief on turn 58 (quick speed)

Every game i've tried the AI has gotten reformation too fast and always gets JE

i had filled only up to collective rule on liberty then was going to max piety, but was nowhere near close to reformation beliefs at that point

If you can't get Jesuit education, then don't. If you're playing single player you should consider getting interfaith dialoges and some other reformation belief as opposed of whatever you'd get for multiplayer.

Interfaith dialouges on single player rocks, hard. Use your massive faith to spam cheap missionaries every turn. With great mosque, you get 3 spreads per missionary. Connect a road to a high pop, foreign religion capital and spam away that science. On a 15 pop capital, around 10 of them are going to be foreign religion citizens. That's 100 science per spread. You get 1 missionary a turn, with 3 spreads. That's 300 science per turn when - yeah. Do that until you get to industrial, then use your massive faith to spam buy great people. Best part is the AI will use THEIR faith to spam inquisitors and missionaries, so you get to reconvert all over again. Honestly i'd do this in multiplayer - problem is that you can't flood somebodies capital with missionaries or they WILL declare war on you.

this strategy could also be interesting using holy warriors for domination games yeah?

Thought so too, tried it out. Huge mistake, almost cost me the game. Unit faith cost scales with era. Buying a gattling gun for 600 faith is stupid. That's the price you pay for 6 universities, or 3 public schools, or a great person.

 

[Free Gold]

I have not tested this yet since I didn't pick it as a reformation belief but when my empire got unhappy at one point from testing this out I noticed the Rebel units that spawned were called Barbarians, with a tech level equal to my own (around 8 Nuke Robots spawned in my empire) so I was wondering - would they be converted with Heathen Conversion? If the answer is yes could this strategy be adapted to use the unhappy you get from Annexing cities to become your military production? Tech to a certain level, attack and use the unhappy converted troops as reinforcements?

I tested this out - they can indeed be converted! Although I do not know how many spawn at a given point, or what determines the number. When I tested it out, every 5-8 turns 2 pikemen or longswords spawned in my empire, and my missionary was able to convert them both by hugging them. So this strategy could indeed work; only problem is if its worth the hammer cost that -10 happiness gives. At -10 happiness, you lose 20 percent production and gold. Assuming its very late in the game, you should be able to produce 400 hammers a turn. At -10 happiness, you lose 100 hammers per turn. Assuming 2 giant death robots spawn every 5 turns, for a value of 500 hammers, all you're doing is breaking even. If, however, more than 2 spawn then you are actually gaining hammers per turn. Now - you said 8 spawned, if that's true then you effectivly gained 1500 hammers.

Still; if anybody cares to test it out for me i'd be more than grateful; what determines the amount of barbarians that spawn - is it your number of cities? Is it how much unhappiness you have? Or is it something else.

 

[Tabarnak]

Interesting that we got into the same mp game last night. I identified what you were doing and i wasn't impressed at all seriously. You spammed cities near 2 different civs(Poland and Zulus) then a bit later the Zulus attaced you and you felt down easily. I was 6% ahead in techs when you bailed.

You dont' need all these cities to win. 4-5 by the turn 100 and 7-8 by the turn 150 is approx the most optimal. You really hurt yourself by going ICS and don't really make a real profit of what you can do tech and production wise, balancing power and research over time.

If you never get attacked before the turn 110 it can be really good but fortunately humans arent stupid in general.

Edit : I won the game btw

 

[Free Gold]

Interesting that we got into the same mp game last night. I identified what you were doing and i wasn't impressed at all seriously. You spammed cities near 2 different civs(Poland and Zulus) then a bit later the Zulus attaced you and you felt down easily. I was 6% ahead in techs when you bailed.

You dont' need all these cities to win. 4-5 by the turn 100 and 7-8 by the turn 150 is approx the most optimal. You really hurt yourself by going ICS and don't really make a real profit of what you can do tech and production wise, balancing power and research over time.

If you never get attacked before the turn 110 it can be really good but fortunately humans arent stupid in general.

Edit : I won the game btw

Yes, I messed up on multiple fronts that game.
1) I went the delayed ICS, going for NC. I didn't rush oracle, like I usually do, so I was behind on social policies
2) I didn't get +2 science per trade route. This hurt my tech alot, so when I got zulu rushed and I only had chariots, I was done for.
3) I overextended, by alot. I didn't see the fact that I had crabs near my borders or I would have stopped at 8 cities as opposed to extending northeast.
4) I rushed for Notre Dame when I didn't have the science for it. Universities or Camel archers would have been much better choices that game.
5) I didn't even start spamming shrines/temples that game since I was behind on social policies.

Still; I continually test things out - some of which don't go for the better. That game I learned to things: 1) rushing for notre dame is a no no. 2) Going the NC expand build REQUIRES an Oracle and 2 science per trade route. Otherwise you get behind, and fast.

Also; another thing. Usually with this build I can get xbows/camel archers up by turn 80. That game I would have had them turn 100, implying I messed up big time. In short; it wasn't my number of cities that hurt me that game but my overextending.

 

[RStark]

Hello Free Gold!

That's a great guide for MP ICS. I was fond of ICSing in G&K, but never truly understood the power of Piety tree for the very wide empire strategy.

I have lately been speculating on some other type of ICS MP strategy for rather special game settings.
The game settings will be following: Terra, large map for 10 human controlled civs, standard speed.
As I know, Terra doesn't usually provide enough land on the same landmass for building an ICS empire without stepping on lands of other civs. Mainly your civ has 4-6 good spots for settling without making war.
So I intend to play as Egypt, Maya or Byzantium. At first I plan to establish a strong 4-5 city Tradition empire on the shared continent and beeline to Astronomy.
Then I plan to ICS the landmasses of the New World by fully utilizing Piety social policies.
I just want to mention that MP game is going to take place on standard rather than quick speed. So the research rate is not so high and colonies of the New World still have a chance to grow up fairly well before hitting the industrial era.
I know that after advancing into New Era the cost of religious buildings and missionaries will be higher, but I still believe that ICSing of the New World is possible.

What kind of beliefs, number of cities to settle and pantheon will you suggest for that kind of strategy? Do you think than Tradition + Piety ICS strategy is a viable option for Terra?

 

[tommynt]

this is still being discussed?

why havent a "strategy" which is common for 3 years been discussed when it was good but now when it got pretty much weakend and kind of suckz?

Again all this size 1 city thing is - I even tried it - with all the building needed to get cities rolling u get broke in no time .... only way to make it kind of work is having size1 army and constantly bulying CS, but this essential part is totaly missing in op writeup ..

Or having 0 army and no unit upkeep - and die like that ...

maybe i should not give this a freepush?

 

[RealHuhn]

this is still being discussed?

why havent a "strategy" which is common for 3 years been discussed when it was good but now when it got pretty much weakend and kind of suckz?

Again all this size 1 city thing is - I even tried it - with all the building needed to get cities rolling u get broke in no time .... only way to make it kind of work is having size1 army and constantly bulying CS, but this essential part is totaly missing in op writeup ..

Or having 0 army and no unit upkeep - and die like that ...

maybe i should not give this a freepush?

Improve luxuries and work those tiles? Tithe? Church Property? Religion offers more than enough money, to be honest.

Besides, the OP gets free gold anyway.

I agree that this strategy is old but it is a bit more flexible without the restriction to reach classical era for Piety.

 

[ScantilyCladLad]

even if its old, there doesnt seem to be an updated ICS guide in the war academy or strategy section, so its quite useful for people who are trying to learn to do ICS

 

[Free Gold]

Hello Free Gold!

That's a great guide for MP ICS. I was fond of ICSing in G&K, but never truly understood the power of Piety tree for the very wide empire strategy.

I have lately been speculating on some other type of ICS MP strategy for rather special game settings.
The game settings will be following: Terra, large map for 10 human controlled civs, standard speed.
As I know, Terra doesn't usually provide enough land on the same landmass for building an ICS empire without stepping on lands of other civs. Mainly your civ has 4-6 good spots for settling without making war.
So I intend to play as Egypt, Maya or Byzantium. At first I plan to establish a strong 4-5 city Tradition empire on the shared continent and beeline to Astronomy.
Then I plan to ICS the landmasses of the New World by fully utilizing Piety social policies.
I just want to mention that MP game is going to take place on standard rather than quick speed. So the research rate is not so high and colonies of the New World still have a chance to grow up fairly well before hitting the industrial era.
I know that after advancing into New Era the cost of religious buildings and missionaries will be higher, but I still believe that ICSing of the New World is possible.

What kind of beliefs, number of cities to settle and pantheon will you suggest for that kind of strategy? Do you think than Tradition + Piety ICS strategy is a viable option for Terra?

If I remember correctly, terra is a map where you spawn in the "old world" and rush to settle the new one. As I pointed out earlier in the thread; settling past a given timeframe is something you do NOT want to do as, especially with ICS. Granted, if it's a 10 person map, the setting is "large", therefore this might be a viable strategy.

As for your tradition opener, I highly advise against it. Tradition is good on single player when you can sell luxuries for cash. The best you can do on multiplayer is tribute city states for gold, only problem with that is it's not a build. If you do not spawn near 3 city states you might as well forget about city state gold to buy settlers - it will come to late.

Another option is to hard build settlers - but if you do that you don't want to hard build any more than 3 as your capital will quickly fall behind.

So for your build I would advise doing the Liberty NC expand build. I'd link you the thread, but I have no idea where it is. In a nutshell, you stay with one city in your capital and rush to national college. Your policy order is free worker> +1 prod > free settler > rest of liberty. You should have your nc finished before you settle your first city. Then you get either an Oracle or Writers Guild for a pre turn 60 religion from liberty finisher. Then once you build either Oracle/Writers guild, you start spamming settles from the capital.

I've tested this strategy out in multiplayer and it works great if you spawn somewhere where you know you're not going to get comp bow rushed. I.e don't do this if you spawn 7 tiles from somebodies capital. Turn 60-70 is when you start building comp bows in your capital, and turn 75 is when you upgrade them to xbows. So as long as you know you can survive the first 50 or so turn, this build works wonders.

As for 'settling the new world', I advise getting commerce +3 production from coastal cities and +1 happiness from lighthouse/harbor/seaport. If you ever try to colonize a continent other than your own, always settle on the coast and don't bother with inland cities. The production will help you get a harbor up in every city for trade connection gold, as well as granting your cities happiness to grow. Food from lighthouse is also a plus.

this is still being discussed?

why havent a "strategy" which is common for 3 years been discussed when it was good but now when it got pretty much weakend and kind of suckz?

Again all this size 1 city thing is - I even tried it - with all the building needed to get cities rolling u get broke in no time .... only way to make it kind of work is having size1 army and constantly bulying CS, but this essential part is totaly missing in op writeup ..

Or having 0 army and no unit upkeep - and die like that ...

maybe i should not give this a freepush?

I don't know why it wasn't discussed, but I wouldn't say it sucks. It's a mid-late game build that takes a lot of investment.

And honestly; I usually don't have a problem with gold. This is because you get +2 gold per city or +67 gold per religion spread.
If you have 10 cities, you can expect your religion to spread to about 15 cities total. That's 30 gold a turn right there.
Assuming temples cost 2 gold per turn, shrines 1 gpt, monument 1 gpt - you can have every city with one of these and only be losing .5 gold per turn per city. If you need to field a military however, you will take a -gpt hit. And most of the time when I need to field a military, I disband it once I feel safe enough - theres no reason to be keeping 20 units when you only need 5. Still; this is without caravan gold. On emperor setting, each caravan to a city state is about 4 gold per turn, or 9 gold per turn from a cargo ship. With 3 of them you should be able to stay afloat and then some. Then late game, having 10 pop cities 3 tiles apart will generate a TON of gold from trade connections. Assuming a 20 size capital, and a 10 size city connection, you'd get about 10 gold per turn (including the cost of the 3 gpt city connection). You should have 9 other 10 pop cities, so that's easily 100 gold per turn - enough to finance your army.

after another playthrough im convinced gaining jesuit education is near impossible in SP using this strat.

Immortal difficulty, playing as ethiopia. I was in the midst of spamming cities with steles (up to about 8 or so) when the iriqouis got JE as their reformation belief on turn 58 (quick speed)

Every game i've tried the AI has gotten reformation too fast and always gets JE

i had filled only up to collective rule on liberty then was going to max piety, but was nowhere near close to reformation beliefs at that point

Your best bet is to rush an Oracle and a Writers guild asap for a quick 2 policy boost - other than that I don't know what to tell you. Jesuit education is good; but so is mass buying great people. You can easily buy 4 great scientists (without adding them to the counter) and be in the same place tech wise as you would be with Jesuit education.

 

[JamesCivFan]

Hello, Free Gold. I tried this strategy with the Mayans, and I can say that it's very, very difficult to pull off. The most difficult part for me (on Deity at least) was to keep up with the AIs science wise. Since this is a late game strategy, the AI will be ahead of you on Deity, for the most part of the game. I had around 400 science per turn on turn 205, which is very low compared to a Tradition/pure Liberty game with less cities, where you have about 500+ beakers per turn on turn 200.

About the gold, in the beginning, I actually didn't have any problems, because selling all those luxuries and strategic resources you have connected to the AIs, gives you a ton of gold. I didn't manage to get a reformation belief fast enough, though. You say that you don't need any wonders, but in my opinion, the Oracle is almost a must for this strategy to work properly. I got a late reformation belief and I got the one that lets you buy any kind of great person starting from the Industrial Era. I simply cannot comprehend how are you able to quickly finish two trees early, without the Oracle and with a very weak capital that has about 6-7 population by turn 100, so if you burden it with 2 specialists for the Great Writer, it's even worse (because of producing so many settlers early game). In my next game, I'll try the Celts and I will open with Piety to finish it quickly.

 

[anandus]

Intruiging strategy.
As faith grows linearly with the amount of cities where other counters are limited (culture, science, gold) a faith-centered ICS is the only ICS truly worth it.
Will try it out!

(I also like the discussion between tommynt and free gold, good stuff)

 

[FrostK]

As I see from your screens, level of players are not that high:
1. 200+ turn on quick speed and nobody nuked u.
2. on turn 188 u have met only 3 CS, i guess you may have a lot of problems in 'normal' MP game with world congress.
etc.
I did some 'SV' in mp games, and usually it was turn 160-180 attack with 6-8 xcoms. And reason is simple - even if u have very-very-very good cities, you hardly can make all space parts defore others gain nukes if u r playing with decent opponents.

Also your cpt, gpt and faith per turn are not impressing.
So I am still quite conviced that Jesus Education is weak, add to this that all your neighbours can also buy science buildings with faith.

Considering second option - sacred sites, it is a bit strange to take reformation after closing liberty. In this case you loose a lot of turns, when you could gain a lot of tourism. In late game u have no chance wining CV through sacred sites, so u need to take reformation asap. And imho cathedrals are worse than monasteries, cause u just can not pump your faith per turn with cathedrals.

and one last thing - building scout after monument and shrine? I usually go for 2 scouts from start. U know that if u get scout upgraded u can bully CS from start gaining a large boost. Loosing it and a lot of ruins is not the best option for sure.

 

[x2Madda]

A lot of people seem to be trying this in single player against High level AI which is pointless.
In multiplayer (which the guide does state it is for) humans don't get bonuses so things that may not work against the AI will work against humans and as the OP points out, the opposite is also true. For example you can forget trading luxury resources for gold, most human players just want to war, war, war you to death.

Converting barbarians (religious policy) works regardless of camps, and rebels that spawn can also be converted. This means you can dive into -20 happiness and get a free army turn after turn after turn. This is broken in MP because you just keep cities puppeted, rake up huge unhappiness and get free military. Your production is bombed due to the unhappiness penalty but if you are going for war (which is most MP games), then who cares? You weren't getting a diplomatic victory anyway

If you do want to try this out against the AI, Prince difficulty is best since it is the most "fair" of all difficulties but sadly the AI won't emulate a UU rush on you so it isn't the same.

 

[tommynt]

The main problem with all this is that there will ALLWAYS be some1 with a desrt folklore start or having urulu or sinai or whatever close.

And if they are somewhat competent they beat some1 going piety still to 1. religion - and ups pagodas and +2 gold gone ...

The boni from peity just are way to slim compared to the ones form other trees.

 

[Esporin]

Amazing guide!

I didn't see anything regarding reformation beliefs in your guide though - thoughts?

Edit: Nevermind!