What info are you gathering for each building? I think it would be pretty easy (like one afternoon) task for me to write a program to simply go through the XML and output a csv format for opening in a spreadsheet if you tell me what fields you want. Would that help? It would also mean it coils auto generate an updated spears set whenever buidings changed or were added...
C2C - Maintenance Adjustments
- Thread starter Hydromancerx
- Start date
What info are you gathering for each building? I think it would be pretty easy (like one afternoon) task for me to write a program to simply go through the XML and output a csv format for opening in a spreadsheet if you tell me what fields you want. Would that help? It would also mean it coils auto generate an updated spears set whenever buidings changed or were added...
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
whoah... yeah... that'd be ultra cool!
Ok, I'll send you a copy of my spreadsheet at some point tomorrow (I'm just about to head off to bed here.)
So let me get this straight, you're saying you can make this work in both directions? Like not only can we derive all buildings INTO a cvs file (I use excell) but can then turn it back around and update to the XML files FROM the cvs? Oh, dude, that would just be waaaaay too cool.
In such a case, it might be worthwhile then to consider all possible fields? (labeled in a bit more layman's terms than we see in the xml perhaps)
Do you have any idea how greatly such a tool would speed development???
Applying the same thinking to techs and units... the application of such a tool would be such a quantum leap it would be mind-boggling!
Ok, I'll send you a copy of my spreadsheet at some point tomorrow (I'm just about to head off to bed here.)
So let me get this straight, you're saying you can make this work in both directions? Like not only can we derive all buildings INTO a cvs file (I use excell) but can then turn it back around and update to the XML files FROM the cvs? Oh, dude, that would just be waaaaay too cool.
In such a case, it might be worthwhile then to consider all possible fields? (labeled in a bit more layman's terms than we see in the xml perhaps)
Do you have any idea how greatly such a tool would speed development???
Applying the same thinking to techs and units... the application of such a tool would be such a quantum leap it would be mind-boggling!
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
No, sorry. I'm just saying we can derive the spreadsheet programatically from the XML, and as the XML changes simply rerun it to keep the spreadsheet up to date. Going the other way is probably possible too, but a MUCH bigger project.
Send the spreadsheet as you suggested so I can get an idea of what format you're after and I'll do the XML->CSV converter.
I'm afraid I embarked on something major (to be revealed!!) so it's now going to be next week before I get to this, but I expect it to take no more than a day once I do.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
I think i found a solution to the gold problem. It works by using Gold, Instability and Stability.
Gold - Gold is produced by different buildings but as a counter for every
it gives Local Instability. This would represent crime of trying to rob the gold producing building. Note this would not have a National Instability since its not a national issue. This is more like "crime".
Instability - Like said above Instability is driven by the amount of gold there to temp the thieves. The higher the gold the more the Local Instability will be. However to counter this you will have Stability.
Stability - Local Stability is made to counter Instability. It would be in forms such as a Police Station or Town Watch. These buildings would give a large amount of Stability since there would be so many Instability buildings around. However to counter the abundance of gold they would cost a whole lot to maintain. Thus having -. This would be your empires taxes at work to pay the police to keep the peace and keep your empire from rioting into revolutions.
This system of Gold to Instability to Stability should give a balance to the game since you int theory should have close to the same amount of instability as you have gold. Then add on the civics and other factors and it should allow much of your excess gold to be used for keeping the crime low.
What do you guys think?
EDIT: And i think to make it useful for the non-Revolution people We could have
in addition to local stability.
Gold - Gold is produced by different buildings but as a counter for every
it gives Local Instability. This would represent crime of trying to rob the gold producing building. Note this would not have a National Instability since its not a national issue. This is more like "crime".Instability - Like said above Instability is driven by the amount of gold there to temp the thieves. The higher the gold the more the Local Instability will be. However to counter this you will have Stability.
Stability - Local Stability is made to counter Instability. It would be in forms such as a Police Station or Town Watch. These buildings would give a large amount of Stability since there would be so many Instability buildings around. However to counter the abundance of gold they would cost a whole lot to maintain. Thus having -
. This would be your empires taxes at work to pay the police to keep the peace and keep your empire from rioting into revolutions.This system of Gold to Instability to Stability should give a balance to the game since you int theory should have close to the same amount of instability as you have gold. Then add on the civics and other factors and it should allow much of your excess gold to be used for keeping the crime low.
What do you guys think?
EDIT: And i think to make it useful for the non-Revolution people We could have
in addition to local stability.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
I think i found a solution to the gold problem. It works by using Gold, Instability and Stability.
Gold - Gold is produced by different buildings but as a counter for every
Instability - Like said above Instability is driven by the amount of gold there to temp the thieves. The higher the gold the more the Local Instability will be. However to counter this you will have Stability.
Stability - Local Stability is made to counter Instability. It would be in forms such as a Police Station or Town Watch. These buildings would give a large amount of Stability since there would be so many Instability buildings around. However to counter the abundance of gold they would cost a whole lot to maintain. Thus having -
This system of Gold to Instability to Stability should give a balance to the game since you int theory should have close to the same amount of instability as you have gold. Then add on the civics and other factors and it should allow much of your excess gold to be used for keeping the crime low.
What do you guys think?
EDIT: And i think to make it useful for the non-Revolution people We could have
Looks promising but I would not have it 1:1 but then I think they are different units anyway, so it may not matter.
Police are a fairly modern invention requiring "rule of law" to be generally agreed by the populace.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
Yeah the amount would need to be adjusted and tweaked as we play tested it.
Well early on there should not be to big of a problem since the empires are small. Also there can be other factors to keep order such as the chief's hut or military buildings.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Your concept of instability is what Maintenance is all about. Vanilla theory: The more cities, the harder it is to maintain stability. The farther your cities are from the capital, the harder it is to maintain staiblity. Build a courthouse to address crime, improve stability. Now, gold producing buildings don't generate instability in the vanilla system either because they are considered natural victims of what other factors exist rather than temptations, though I can see your point how by focusing money in certain locations, banks, markets, etc, you make it easier to create theft. Perhaps this should be given more consideration.
But equally, too, under such an improved system, we would be best to generate some more concepts to reflect how crime evolves and how law enforcement evolves. For example, in the modern information age, we see a vast decline in say, 'Bank Robberies' due to the fact that money becomes more digital, but an increase in 'ID theft' instead. So Police efforts must become as much a cyber-matter as a physical presence. There are many ways new crimes have been invented and many ways law enforcement has come to address them. (My father was a Forest Service Law enforcement officer for example. Mostly busted weed farms, dumpers, and timber thieves.) Such thoughts may inspire more building ideas.
But yeah, what you're saying about gold income (representing taxation), instability and stability is much what I was aiming for with the system in general, with Maintenance being the key metric expressing the dynamic of instability.
Now that that's understood, I think you're right that many military buildings would have a stabilizing factor. Thus while many 'bureocracy' category buildings require some gold support because they are state funded, they also reduce maintenance by increasing stability. This is likely how a building like the chief's hut will become.
Down the road we could further refine the system to even suggest that great instability may become an unhappiness issue as well (why work when you can steel what you want? Why work when if you do someone just takes what you earn? If the state cannot maintain its laws the citizens would find it both intollerable and be led towards revolt and insubordination would be rife - why not take advantage of the situation for what it is?)
I'm in conflict to see how leisure becomes an instability (thus increases maintenance.) I figure it gives cause for citizens to desire and the stronger the desire, the greater the motive for crime. Additionally, they become harbor regions for such criminal activities. But its also to reflect 'slack' and I was thinking a new metric of -% production may reflect that a bit better. So while they increase happiness and it'd be foolish not to have them, they take a slight toll on production (sorry man, I just had to call in sick (so he could go skiing))
Identifying buildings that increase or harbor crime is going to help a lot overall with the system and is one reason for taking a full look through at all buildings. Things like Mercenary Camps... instability en-masse and only supportable in early empires when size isn't taking a toll as well, yet valuable due to the military benefit (which is usually the tradeoff). Poison Merchant Buildings (black markets) should create instability (increased maintenance). but again offering a military benefit.
We could have a gallows building for an early way to address out of control maintenance (but at the cost of happiness among the citizenry). The line of thinking carries us to so many new concepts.
But equally, too, under such an improved system, we would be best to generate some more concepts to reflect how crime evolves and how law enforcement evolves. For example, in the modern information age, we see a vast decline in say, 'Bank Robberies' due to the fact that money becomes more digital, but an increase in 'ID theft' instead. So Police efforts must become as much a cyber-matter as a physical presence. There are many ways new crimes have been invented and many ways law enforcement has come to address them. (My father was a Forest Service Law enforcement officer for example. Mostly busted weed farms, dumpers, and timber thieves.) Such thoughts may inspire more building ideas.
But yeah, what you're saying about gold income (representing taxation), instability and stability is much what I was aiming for with the system in general, with Maintenance being the key metric expressing the dynamic of instability.
Now that that's understood, I think you're right that many military buildings would have a stabilizing factor. Thus while many 'bureocracy' category buildings require some gold support because they are state funded, they also reduce maintenance by increasing stability. This is likely how a building like the chief's hut will become.
Down the road we could further refine the system to even suggest that great instability may become an unhappiness issue as well (why work when you can steel what you want? Why work when if you do someone just takes what you earn? If the state cannot maintain its laws the citizens would find it both intollerable and be led towards revolt and insubordination would be rife - why not take advantage of the situation for what it is?)
I'm in conflict to see how leisure becomes an instability (thus increases maintenance.) I figure it gives cause for citizens to desire and the stronger the desire, the greater the motive for crime. Additionally, they become harbor regions for such criminal activities. But its also to reflect 'slack' and I was thinking a new metric of -% production may reflect that a bit better. So while they increase happiness and it'd be foolish not to have them, they take a slight toll on production (sorry man, I just had to call in sick (so he could go skiing))
Identifying buildings that increase or harbor crime is going to help a lot overall with the system and is one reason for taking a full look through at all buildings. Things like Mercenary Camps... instability en-masse and only supportable in early empires when size isn't taking a toll as well, yet valuable due to the military benefit (which is usually the tradeoff). Poison Merchant Buildings (black markets) should create instability (increased maintenance). but again offering a military benefit.
We could have a gallows building for an early way to address out of control maintenance (but at the cost of happiness among the citizenry). The line of thinking carries us to so many new concepts.
DRJ
Hedonist
I agree that too much gold is generated atm. I also like a bit harsher instability.
Some thoughts: if too much money is around it should cause to extreme inflation.
Like in reality: if money is printed in abundance, after a while it's nothing worth and people become unhappy (see FED).
Translated to civish:
A large gold surplus per turn (formula: at least a decent 15% of total GNP/turn) could lead to a surplus of unhappy people/city/turn.
As it is allready: the more unhappy people in cities = the more instability in empire.
The concept of the gambling hall is a good one, I think: it gives some money (+3) and also one 
face. So more cash buildings like banks and markets should give 
...
Like directing the player to keep an eye on cities (so they dont grow too large and become unhappy), he could be driven to watch his income level, too - as more economic growth that doesn't fit the spending will cause extreme inflation. So, instead of building every gold building, some other improvements might be wiser to build.
That way we also can prevent getting so large fund that buying large loads stuff while having a civic like coinage cant be exploited anymore (like buying all new buildings a tech grants everywhere, just after having researched - or buying a large defense army in a few turns)
Having a large gold reserve would now be a luxury that comes with a certain price: unhappiness and inflation/turn.
The question in my mind is if AI can possibly evaluate that having too much gold is counter-productive, or not needed, at least in the long term...
It would even grant a new strategy to exploit AI: You might gift gold to enemies, to make them more unstable. AI could be prevented from doing that by having a certain
cut for "donations" (like 1000 gold max/turn) Max/turn because the spender then had to keep more gold over some turns, to "donate" it and that may make his people more unstable at the same time too. So keeping it for donating 1000/for 10 turns would be a risk too...
Edit: The inflation process should be reformed not maintenance, I think!
More dynamic inflation instead of the linear one that also badly sabotages modern starts btw!!!
I want to play the future area on deity but its just not possible, cause as soon as inflation strikes avery few turns it can't be met by any growth...
Some thoughts: if too much money is around it should cause to extreme inflation.
Like in reality: if money is printed in abundance, after a while it's nothing worth and people become unhappy (see FED).
Translated to civish:
A large gold surplus per turn (formula: at least a decent 15% of total GNP/turn) could lead to a surplus of unhappy people/city/turn.
As it is allready: the more unhappy people in cities = the more instability in empire.
The concept of the gambling hall is a good one, I think: it gives some money (+3
) and also one face. So more cash buildings like banks and markets should give ...Like directing the player to keep an eye on cities (so they dont grow too large and become unhappy), he could be driven to watch his income level, too - as more economic growth that doesn't fit the spending will cause extreme inflation. So, instead of building every gold building, some other improvements might be wiser to build.
That way we also can prevent getting so large fund that buying large loads stuff while having a civic like coinage cant be exploited anymore (like buying all new buildings a tech grants everywhere, just after having researched - or buying a large defense army in a few turns)
Having a large gold reserve would now be a luxury that comes with a certain price: unhappiness and inflation/turn.
The question in my mind is if AI can possibly evaluate that having too much gold is counter-productive, or not needed, at least in the long term...
It would even grant a new strategy to exploit AI: You might gift gold to enemies, to make them more unstable. AI could be prevented from doing that by having a certain
cut for "donations" (like 1000 gold max/turn) Max/turn because the spender then had to keep more gold over some turns, to "donate" it and that may make his people more unstable at the same time too. So keeping it for donating 1000/for 10 turns would be a risk too...
Edit: The inflation process should be reformed not maintenance, I think!
More dynamic inflation instead of the linear one that also badly sabotages modern starts btw!!!
I want to play the future area on deity but its just not possible, cause as soon as inflation strikes avery few turns it can't be met by any growth...
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
@Thunderbrd
On a totally game point of view and no historically accurate; we have players who see buildings just based on their cost and stats. This is fine sometimes but other times very annoying of you want the game to play like real life would. For instance not building a building just because it has unhappy or unhealthy. Lets call these NIMBY (not in my backyard) buildings. While some of these can be optional (ex. Toxic Waste Dump, Federal Prison, Landfill), some of them should not be. We should try to work some of these building into the infer-structure of the game. Meaning you cannot get very far if you don't build them.
Case in point the Tannery. Many people do not want to build the tannery because of the unhealthiness it gives. However it makes Good (Leather) and thus is important to other buildings like a Cobbler or Sail Maker. Thus if one wants to make ships there is a good chance they need to make a Tannery. Likewise we want to have it where if they want gold there is going to be a downside of "crime" associated with it. Thus causing them to have to build crime fighting buildings. Because who needs to build an expensive Police Station if there is no "crime"?
Note the same logic works for say unhealthy buildings vs healthy buildings. At the moment they can just build any gold producing building with no consequences. No crime and no way to spend all that gold on buildings who help counter things (like the Police Station with crime).
Well here is a real life example, here in southern California we have a theme park called "Six Flags: Magic Mountain". This would definitely be considered a place of leisure. However gangs have come in and basically taken over the place. Thus having a high crime rate. The same could be seen for Las Vegas where it is/was a place of both leisure and crime. In short leisure should not be anti-crime but like you said anti-production. If people are having playing then they are not working. However leisure can still increase culture and even happiness.
The down side to leasure being anti-production is many people will not want to choose any leasure buildings. Thus we will have to make sure that production buildings (or at least some of them) make people unhappy (because they are working and not playing).
In short something like this for balance ...
High Crime (+ - -Local Instability) <------> Low Crime (- + +Local Instability)
Leisure (+
-
) <-------> Work (- 
+)
Or something like that since there are many other factors.
On a totally game point of view and no historically accurate; we have players who see buildings just based on their cost and stats. This is fine sometimes but other times very annoying of you want the game to play like real life would. For instance not building a building just because it has unhappy or unhealthy. Lets call these NIMBY (not in my backyard) buildings. While some of these can be optional (ex. Toxic Waste Dump, Federal Prison, Landfill), some of them should not be. We should try to work some of these building into the infer-structure of the game. Meaning you cannot get very far if you don't build them.
Case in point the Tannery. Many people do not want to build the tannery because of the unhealthiness it gives. However it makes Good (Leather) and thus is important to other buildings like a Cobbler or Sail Maker. Thus if one wants to make ships there is a good chance they need to make a Tannery. Likewise we want to have it where if they want gold there is going to be a downside of "crime" associated with it. Thus causing them to have to build crime fighting buildings. Because who needs to build an expensive Police Station if there is no "crime"?
Note the same logic works for say unhealthy buildings vs healthy buildings. At the moment they can just build any gold producing building with no consequences. No crime and no way to spend all that gold on buildings who help counter things (like the Police Station with crime).
Well here is a real life example, here in southern California we have a theme park called "Six Flags: Magic Mountain". This would definitely be considered a place of leisure. However gangs have come in and basically taken over the place. Thus having a high crime rate. The same could be seen for Las Vegas where it is/was a place of both leisure and crime. In short leisure should not be anti-crime but like you said anti-production. If people are having playing then they are not working. However leisure can still increase culture and even happiness.
The down side to leasure being anti-production is many people will not want to choose any leasure buildings. Thus we will have to make sure that production buildings (or at least some of them) make people unhappy (because they are working and not playing).
In short something like this for balance ...
High Crime (+
- -Local Instability) <------> Low Crime (- + +Local Instability)Leisure (+
-) <-------> Work (- +)Or something like that since there are many other factors.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Players so nearsighted as to avoid building a building because of there being any detraction would fail to play effectively in this system, yes. There should almost always be tradeoffs and the skill comes in recognizing what you need to construct NOW.
Your breakdown of the leisure and crime is pretty much exactly what I have in mind myself. Its all about achieving a balance.
Another thing I've been considering is some financial civic chains that could make a lot of difference to the whole system.
For example, if you subsidize farming operations, the state is throwing gold at generating food - we have no system in place for this. In other words, privatisation of various aspects of the economy vs state funded and run is a matter of preference for all nations and any decisions made there have their own imperfect set of strengths and weaknesses that can be taken into consideration, again, based on current need.
I suggest we may wish to consider such issues as we construct this new system. I want to put that out there before I get to a point where I'm going through this personally. We could generate a number of new XML fields for varying benefits/penalties for our buildings based on civic selections. Such thinking would add a terribly realistic dynamism to our structure.
As I go through the buildings, these are some of the thoughts that have come to mind. I have various categories of buildings emerging here and we have a lot of possible new ways for these buildings to adjust based on civic choices about how the state 'runs' that sort of category, like 'agricultural' as in the above example.
And something else I've noticed, and this is to Koshling as well, we REALLY need to deepen some of the programming structure for the Defensive buildings. Many of them are worthless by the time they are able to be built because their defenses only apply as if they were walls or castles (vs anything pre-high explosives) so we need a new XML field for a defense rating that doesn't get outdated. (Think arcologies and such modern - future defense buildings) There's some other places where thinking down this line must be established as well, and I've noticed some buildings add strength benefits to particular types of troops so I'm going to look to improve some of the more modern defenses using those xml methods already in place but vastly underused. I'll have some more pointed suggestions here for that soon too. I think this is one reason we're finding the future eras so overwhelmingly geared towards the attacker and cities becoming nearly indefendable after you progress far enough into the game.
Anyhow, getting this overview of buildings as I go is certainly inspiring some thoughts.
Your breakdown of the leisure and crime is pretty much exactly what I have in mind myself. Its all about achieving a balance.
This whole concept would be tough for the ai - and would take some additional programming to help them (at least illusionarily) 'see' a downside to having too much gold. I agree that inflation should adjust based on the excess you may be carrying. I've never isolated how inflation is calculated or where but creating a more dynamic inflation system could really help as you outlined. Its something to look at 'next' after working out some of the balance issues as far as we can with the current xml structure. The current inflation mechanism is vaguely expressed to players and is largely hidden in the dll somewhere - haven't gone looking yet to be honest but that's what I understand it to be - not much for the xml modders to work with to adjust it save for some new fields for civics.
Another thing I've been considering is some financial civic chains that could make a lot of difference to the whole system.
For example, if you subsidize farming operations, the state is throwing gold at generating food - we have no system in place for this. In other words, privatisation of various aspects of the economy vs state funded and run is a matter of preference for all nations and any decisions made there have their own imperfect set of strengths and weaknesses that can be taken into consideration, again, based on current need.
I suggest we may wish to consider such issues as we construct this new system. I want to put that out there before I get to a point where I'm going through this personally. We could generate a number of new XML fields for varying benefits/penalties for our buildings based on civic selections. Such thinking would add a terribly realistic dynamism to our structure.
As I go through the buildings, these are some of the thoughts that have come to mind. I have various categories of buildings emerging here and we have a lot of possible new ways for these buildings to adjust based on civic choices about how the state 'runs' that sort of category, like 'agricultural' as in the above example.
And something else I've noticed, and this is to Koshling as well, we REALLY need to deepen some of the programming structure for the Defensive buildings. Many of them are worthless by the time they are able to be built because their defenses only apply as if they were walls or castles (vs anything pre-high explosives) so we need a new XML field for a defense rating that doesn't get outdated. (Think arcologies and such modern - future defense buildings) There's some other places where thinking down this line must be established as well, and I've noticed some buildings add strength benefits to particular types of troops so I'm going to look to improve some of the more modern defenses using those xml methods already in place but vastly underused. I'll have some more pointed suggestions here for that soon too. I think this is one reason we're finding the future eras so overwhelmingly geared towards the attacker and cities becoming nearly indefendable after you progress far enough into the game.
Anyhow, getting this overview of buildings as I go is certainly inspiring some thoughts.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
There is a Civic in Afforess' Rewritten Civics which deals with Agriculture. Perhaps it could be added in the future. It includes "Subsidized Agriculture" as one of its civics.
Spoiler :
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
Some recent research suggests that slash and burn actually increases soil fertility over time. Especially in jungles. It is because the charcol added to the soil traps neutrents reducing leaching
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I suppose those would work. I wonder, though, using these as a good platform, if it would still help to add some various xml fields for the buildings that are dependant on various civics being adopted (that can replace the usual assets or at least modify them)
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
The exact stats can be adjusted. For isntance "Slash and Burn" Civic should probably be moved to "Slash and Burn" Tech.
I like the agriculture civic.
As for extra XML fields (and ai usage if needed) just let me know what you think you need (this applies to hydro and thunderbrd's requests)
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Well... I'm not entirely sure what we HAVE here already. In short, what I'm looking for is a field group allowing you to:
a) define the civic under which the adjustment should be made
b) define any conditional +/- int OR +/- % on any commerce, and/or yield.
c) said field should adjust from the base value when under defined civic.
Thus, for example, via xml, I may be able to make a Farmhouse get an additional food but be at -2 gold when operating under the 'subsidized farming' civic.
Such an xml tool would have huge potential application. But before we start trying to put the field in, something tells me I heard one of you say at some point that we already had something along these lines - I'm just not sure how, where, to work that into the xml building infos.
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
The Farmhouse building was taken out once the "Goods" system was put in place.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Ok... t'was just a random example anyhow
Hydromancerx
C2C Modder
How is this coming? What letter are you at now? We should try to get this fixed soon since the abundant gold has broken revolutions and in turn the game in general.
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