City States keep gobbling up NWs

[Cajamarca]

Ordinarily this isn't a problem because I play tall and don't find many in good spots before I've settled several cities and focus on growing them rather than pump out more settlers and wind up never building Oxford or the Ironworks.

But now that I have Spain and the new G&K wonders, this is an annoyance that has steadily grown in scope. 20 per turn in the early game can make a huge difference, as can 16 per turn. I've seen Cerro de Potosi, the Barringer Crater, Old Faithful, and Sri Pada sucked up by city states.

What spurred me to write this post was a recent Spain game where Geneva grabbed the freaking Fountain of Youth.

My guess is that the scripts for placing CS and placing NWs are too similar.

Has anyone else had this problem?

 

[joncnunn]

This occurs frequently, but it's better than an alternative:
Badly placed city state doesn't take in a nearby natural wonder, but has blocked out all possible city sites to one.
(That alternative is much worse since in the first case if you really wanted to you could conquer the city state for its natural wonder while in the second since city states can't be razed you can't ever found a city that can work it.)

 

[Cajamarca]

Could the script be tweaked so that city states must be at least 5 tiles from any natural wonder? And if that isn't possible, set up a priority system so that they gobble up the grand mesa first? That has to be the most terrible NW on the list.

 

[True_Candyman]

I think the idea is that generally city states are MEANT to get the natural wonders. That way there is some kind of advantage to taking them over to offset the loss of a potential source of happiness/food/culture/religion/units that comes with being their ally.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

<cough>Conquer<cough>

 

[Matthew.]

Yeah, I also think it is meant as a potential trade-off. Conquer and risk hostility from others/lose out on CS bonuses, but get the NW as a trophy. On larger maps, there isn't much downside to conquering a CS. There are plenty of others on the map to ally if you need the bonuses, and farther away AI won't get as upset (they may not even scout the CS until much later).

Or, if you are quick with the settler, you can rush-buy tiles to the NW and snipe it before CS borders close around.

 

[MarauderCH]

or use a GG to steal territory from the CS and make it yours...

 

[joncnunn]

There is a major warmongler diplomatic penalty involving conquering city states:

First you use up the "free" war mongler one for just DOWing the city state.
Then you get the second war mongler one for conquering it.

This will reduce gold you get selling luxuries to most of the AIs.

 

[Matthew.]

And there is a third hit if an AI has vowed to protect the CS. Perhaps a fourth for ignoring when they ask you to stop as well, not sure if that one overlaps with the third.

But if it is early in the game (when you are settling cities) conquering a single CS won't harm most of the rest of the game. Those near you will have likely DoW'd either way, and those far away won't care by the time you start trading/interacting with them.

Basically either right away or late-game domination and the penalties aren't that bad. It is during the middle part of the game when conquering a lot of CS's will hurt (every AI declaring war at the same time)

 

[Callonia]

I see Mt. Fuji! Wheee pretty.. wait, what, city state haves it?

*Conquers the insolent city state.*

Problem solved.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Remember something as Spain: the real UA bonus is the discovery, not the ownership of the natural wonders. That double happiness and infusion of cash right at the beginning of the game is a real boost. If you can actually manage to settle on a natural wonder, so much the better. As the game goes on, there is less incentive to try to acquire natural wonders that have already been settled.

Also, Spain is one of the few civs that can actually benefit from having a larger map size. Bigger maps have more natural wonders.

 

[True_Candyman]

Remember something as Spain: the real UA bonus is the discovery, not the ownership of the natural wonders. That double happiness and infusion of cash right at the beginning of the game is a real boost. If you can actually manage to settle on a natural wonder, so much the better. As the game goes on, there is less incentive to try to acquire natural wonders that have already been settled.

Also, Spain is one of the few civs that can actually benefit from having a larger map size. Bigger maps have more natural wonders.

Are you kidding me?

The real UA bonus is when you grab up a close by wonder early on. If with the cash made from said wonder, all the better!

That early boost to cash and happiness will give you a head start, the bonuses from owning wonders are what let you romp away with it.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Are you kidding me?

The real UA bonus is when you grab up a close by wonder early on. If with the cash made from said wonder, all the better!

That early boost to cash and happiness will give you a head start, the bonuses from owning wonders are what let you romp away with it.

Settling a natural wonder nice but it's not reliable. The extra happiness and cash allows you to expand rapidly early. THAT is the works-every-time aspect. If you manage to find several wonders first, even better. If you manage to have one close enough that you can put your second or third city there, that's the best. But even if you never settle or capture a natural wonder in the whole game, you still had that boost at the beginning from discovering the wonders which allows you to snowball.

Adding natural wonders to your empire later in the game is of far less consequence. The output from working those tiles for your food, culture, science, or money is huge in the beginning, but it's hardly a drop in the bucket later. That's why it's the lesser aspect of the UA. It's unreliable and it means very little later on.

 

[steveg700]

Yeah, I also think it is meant as a potential trade-off. Conquer and risk hostility from others/lose out on CS bonuses, but get the NW as a trophy.

Bingo. It's a carrot to conquer.

 

[compwiz1202]

And there is a third hit if an AI has vowed to protect the CS. Perhaps a fourth for ignoring when they ask you to stop as well, not sure if that one overlaps with the third.

But if it is early in the game (when you are settling cities) conquering a single CS won't harm most of the rest of the game. Those near you will have likely DoW'd either way, and those far away won't care by the time you start trading/interacting with them.

Basically either right away or late-game domination and the penalties aren't that bad. It is during the middle part of the game when conquering a lot of CS's will hurt (every AI declaring war at the same time)

When I was playing Mongolia, I remember seeing three about protection:

1. They asked you to stop attacking a CS under their protection, but you ignored them.
2. You attacked CS under their protection.
3. You conquered CS under their protection. (This might have replaced #2 though; I will have to check again)

 

[krc]

Could the script be tweaked so that city states must be at least 5 tiles from any natural wonder? And if that isn't possible, set up a priority system so that they gobble up the grand mesa first? That has to be the most terrible NW on the list.

I've actually looked at the script. It is deliberately designed to keep major civs away from wonders and allow CS to be close to them. The order is

1. Place the AI civs, accounting for terrain biases and spreading them around.
2. Place the natural wonders, trying to keep them a far as possible from all civs.
3. Place the city states.