Civ4 Reimagined

Interesting, we didn't experience a lack of buildings in most of our game so far. Just played a quick 100 turns on Monarch difficulty to make sure everything is working. I never ran out of buildings to build (had a good start though and could keep my research strong at all times).



Sounds like research cannot keep up with production in your cities. 20% tech rate is not normal and means you probably expanded too quickly and/or didn't put enough effort to generate commerce.

Generating early commerce is a bit more difficult in this mod than normal BtS as rivertiles don't grant 1C for free anymore and cottage growth has been slowed down as well.

Trade is crucial for early research/commerce and there have been some changes compared to BtS:
- You really need to connect your cities quickly either by building roads or researching sailing. New cities without trade connection are a sure way to go bancrupt.
- Open borders are hard to get as your AI opponents now have to be pleased with you. If you manage to get some it is very important to actually establish a trade connection (i.e. you need to see their cities and there has to be some kind of connection either by roads, river or sea). Scouts and ships are very useful to establish those connections as they are faster and can enter rival territory.

Looking at keldath's save I can see that you were playing at epic game speed. Maybe it has something to do with it. We didn't make any changes to the game speed modifiers but we also never really tested anything besides normal speed. We will take a look at it.

I would also encourage everybody to try a game with our recommended game settings in the OP. Early game should be more interesting because there is less space and more direct contact with the AI.

Ah, that explains a lot then. I was playing on epic speed as well, in addition to huge map.
Interesting. I never play quick speed, or lock myself into one particular criteria of settings. Will have to take a look at the xml when I have time later to see what need to be tweaked.
Appreciate all your hard work guys, well done.
 
would also encourage everybody to try a game with our recommended game settings in the OP. Early game should be more interesting because there is less space and more direct contact with the AI.
Settings in the op? What did you mean?

Glad to see i started a small debate.

I know you did not change much of the core play, but, its just something i fekt during my gane,, which i havnt had time due to studies :(,
But, perhaps you guys can add some stuff, buildings to spice things up.


Weird, nevered of this gs... Is it active?
 
Weird, nevered of this gs... Is it active?

A player named Zulan has put up a 'fake' gamespy server. It is running 24/7 and offers all old gamespy online functions (e.g., hosting and hotjoining games, apart from buddy list). It is mostly used for daily 3vs3 teamer games.

Sounds like research cannot keep up with production in your cities. 20% tech rate is not normal and means you probably expanded too quickly and/or didn't put enough effort to generate commerce.

Generating early commerce is a bit more difficult in this mod than normal BtS as rivertiles don't grant 1C for free anymore and cottage growth has been slowed down as well.

I can confirm that. We (me, yorik and 6 other players from above mentioned evolve group) tried this mod today, on quick speed + Emperor difficulty, and almost all of us found the tech/production balance to be suboptimal. However, i should add that we did not use the random map settings you mentioned, but rather a map called EarthEvolution2 (the one we use for daily games on quick speed anyway).

I have not read this thread, so i suppose you had your reasons for removing the river gold bonus, which is fine. But one thing that really bothered us is the flatland requirement for Cottages, which makes city spots that contain a lot of Floodplains pretty much useless.

Otherwise, great work on this. I think I (we) might look into this mod in the future.
 
I agree with others - this mod definitely has fast production and slow research.
While mod creators state opposite I find that spamming cottages is the best strategy - I constantly need more :commerce:.
Also bulbing is more important in this mod. Academies are weaker (only +25%:science: and require lit-re), but great people can bulb multiple techs at once. Great generals can bulb too, and in current game I used my GGs from early wars to bulb techs like machinery (and built Grand Canal).
Philo and fin traits look even stronger in this mod than in regular BtS. And starting with grassland gems too.
It seems, multiple sources of same resource provide benefits: 2 rice+granary give 3 :health:, I dislike it.
I like some details: less :hammers: from chopping, weaker axemen, stronger (but with penalty against cities) chariots, no environmentalism civic, later economics and communism, wineries at pottery, watermills starting at +2:hammers: (but no, I need more cottages), coal plants require electricity, limited hydro plants, :mad: from non-state :religion:, more wonders, "requires uni in 50% of cities" for Great Uni etc.
In new military civics category feudal levy looks the best (even in modern era) because of big army costs reduction, unless you really want these +xp or cheaper upgrades from prof-l army (probably, temporarily), other military civics don't look useful for me. Names of labor and economic civics look too overlapping (like in RFC: DoC, yes), I don't like them.
 
How could I start chopping without bronze working but minig only?
You can clear forests on resource tiles without knowledge of bronze working.

I can confirm that. We (me, yorik and 6 other players from above mentioned evolve group) tried this mod today, on quick speed + Emperor difficulty, and almost all of us found the tech/production balance to be suboptimal. However, i should add that we did not use the random map settings you mentioned, but rather a map called EarthEvolution2 (the one we use for daily games on quick speed anyway).
Glad to see such a big group giving it a shot and thanks for the feedback. I would love to know if the bad research/production balance still comes up in your second game now that your group knows that generating research can be a bit tougher than in BTS. Maybe focussing a bit more on generating early commerce is all it takes? (Connecting cities for trade bonus as quickly as possible; using scouts/galleys to quickly find AI players for open borders possibilities; employing scientists instead of working tiles can give you a decent early research boost even when going for cottage spam and a great scientist is nice boost for your research; not settling too many cities before the research of currency).
Or maybe your problems still persist and we need to make early commerce easier, either regarding your game speed/map settings or in general. With how many (AI) players did you play? And do you usually sign open border agreements between human players?

I have not read this thread, so i suppose you had your reasons for removing the river gold bonus, which is fine. But one thing that really bothered us is the flatland requirement for Cottages, which makes city spots that contain a lot of Floodplains pretty much useless.

Otherwise, great work on this. I think I (we) might look into this mod in the future.
Yes, no cottages on floodplains is a small nerf for floodplane-heavy locations, but they still grant you awesome yields. Floodplains with their unprecendeted food gain allow you to build great specialist cities - and because more civics support a specialist economy (and cottages got nerfed) it is a much more viable strategy to use specialists now. Floodplains now also only cost you 0.2 :yuck: per tile (BTS: 0.4 :yuck: per tile). Personally I am always happy when I see city positions with many floodplain tiles.

Philo and fin traits look even stronger in this mod than in regular BtS.
Financial *should* be weaker than BTS since it is only effective once you discover currency and cottages take longer to reach the 2:commerce: threshold. However, maybe this nerfs are partly mitigated by a stronger necessarity to focus on economy and research as compared to BTS.

It seems, multiple sources of same resource provide benefits: 2 rice+granary give 3 :health:, I dislike it.
Multiple resources of the same kind should not grant you benefits above +1:health:/:c5happy: (and another +1 for the appropriate building). If you really encounter +3 health from rice as you said we would appreciate a save game to take a look.

In new military civics category feudal levy looks the best (even in modern era) because of big army costs reduction, unless you really want these +xp or cheaper upgrades from prof-l army (probably, temporarily), other military civics don't look useful for me.
Conscription should eventually grant you more free units as your population grows. Mercenaries and warrior code are niche civics by design: Mercenaries is a big boon if you lack vital strategy resources (and for naval combat, combat II promotions are probably superior to everything your enemies will have). Warrior code is sweet when you resort to excessive pillaging but is probably the most difficult to pull off.

Names of labor and economic civics look too overlapping.
Good point. "Capitalism" is probably the biggest offender in this category and sounds a lot like an economy civic. Are there other civic names you consider to be too overlapping?
 
my game is much fun, the ai is great, i love your mod and all its features so far (got to gunpowder)
I now red all of the data in the front page, now i understand more.

Feels the researsh is ratger slow, but, its not bad, just need more buildings.
Also, i feel my cities grow to 12 14 size pretty fast.

And damn it took me forever to conquer a city, i love it.

Also nite the ship plunder gold in enemy territory, im still not sure its fun, it may tilt the fate of a war with a civ with a latge navy, maube reduce it somehow to give one plunder for >0 units in enemy waters.
 
1. I dislike that early ships - galleys and triremes - can move through other civs territory without open borders.
2. It's hard to keep AI Pleased for open borders. Especially with no tech trading, as you recommended, and without bonus for long-term OB. In my current game (year 1795, standard map size, continents, low seas, monarch) the only AI with free market civic (all other are mercantilists) has OB with no one, and AI with the most OB is Tokugawa, I have OB with Toku too, heh. Without real trade partners I use mercantilism, at least it boosts internal TRs and :gold: in capital.
3. Even with all pro-:science: measures (heavy cottaging, all civics for max :commerce:/:science:, using GGs only for bulbing, Grand Canal in cap, spreading religions for monasteries everywhere), science rate feels too slow for me. One AI is slightly technologically more advanced than me (and built all Renaissance wonders), but other AIs are backwards. In 1795 nobody knows RPs or SciMeth yet. I could settle more internal cities and build even more cottages around them, but my resource ratio is already bad.
4. AI razes too much? On other continent I see many good cities razed (old cities, riverside, grassland, with food bonuses). But I suppose, it's K-mod AI, it likes to raze.
Multiple resources of the same kind should not grant you benefits above +1:health:/:c5happy: (and another +1 for the appropriate building). If you really encounter +3 health from rice as you said we would appreciate a save game to take a look.

All resources provide extra basic +1:health:/+:c5happy: for each copy. Look at wheat(1) vs rice,corn(2) vs fish(3) and gold(1) vs gems(2).
Good point. "Capitalism" is probably the biggest offender in this categery and sounds a lot like an economy civic. Are there other civic names you consider to be too overlapping?
Yes, capitalism is an economic system (and FM and merc-sm are forms of cap-sm), and if cap-sm represents wage labor without welfare state, then industrialism represents the same. Corvee should be a labor civic, not economic one, and sort of overlaps with agrarianism. Corvee is a labor tax/duty for local landlord or for government, usually in agrarian society. Funny, but in HRW (where Leoreth get "agr-sm" and "ind-sm" labor civics from, I suppose) "agr-sm" description mentions corvee.
 

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hey guys,

acctualy, what Soviet elf shows, which i saw myself also,
x>1 bonus of health/happiness,
may not be intentionally by you guys, but i like it very much, adds a since of accumulative resources, the more you got the higher the salary.
i recommend to leave it and improve it to be more logical.
you can compensate the extra bonuses by taking health/happy from other places, its easy to counter it.
i really enjoy this innovative mechanism.

the ai feels hard, so far he remembered my aggressiveness for a long time, its nice and not nice :)

its hard to conquer cities (maybe i miss played the ranged units though).

about ai razing cities, i remember a long time ago it was an issue with kmod, there are different ways to bypass it, in realism invictus they did i think, ask them or barrow from them :)
 

All resources provide extra basic +1:health:/+:c5happy: for each copy. Look at wheat(1) vs rice,corn(2) vs fish(3) and gold(1) vs gems(2).

Thank you for the savegame. This is obviously not intended. Looks like we accidently removed a line of code during a last minute code cleanup :goodjob: There will be a fix tomorrow.
 
The patch is savegame-compatible, but it may take a couple turns until the resources are updated.

Upgrade from 1.0 to 1.1 (simply unpack in your mod folder and replace all files when asked to):
Civ4 Reimagined 1.0 to 1.1

Full version 1.1:
Download Civ4 Reimagined 1.1

Patch Notes:
-Fixed major bug that allowed for more than +1 health/happines from a single resource type
-Fixed bug displaying health/happiness benefits from resources incorrectly for resource ratios below 0.1
 
2. It's hard to keep AI Pleased for open borders. Especially with no tech trading, as you recommended, and without bonus for long-term OB. In my current game (year 1795, standard map size, continents, low seas, monarch) the only AI with free market civic (all other are mercantilists) has OB with no one, and AI with the most OB is Tokugawa, I have OB with Toku too, heh. Without real trade partners I use mercantilism, at least it boosts internal TRs and :gold: in capital.
There is a bonus for long-term OB ("Our Open Borders have brought our people close together"). It should give you up to +2 depending on how long the OB contract has lasted.

How many AI players use Mercantilism depends a bit on the gameflow. If the AI is low on trade routes it will more likely decide to use mercantilism, which in turn makes other players more inclined to switch towards Mercantilism, too. Since OB seemed scarce in your game it makes sense that almost all AIs decided to use Mercantilism.

Our design goal is to make OB contracts achieveable, but worth fighting for (well, figuratively). Should I change religion, give tribute, stop trading with someone else or change civics for an improvement in diplomatic relations? Can I risk the diplomatic repercussions of starting a war? For this reason we raised the bar for OB contracts to "pleased". However, we balanced things around a game with 18 players, and for a medium size map, less players simply equals less open borders. To help mitigate this problem we will introduce a new relationship modifier: AI civilizations who have not enough OB contracts yet are more eager to persue new contracts. This will have a larger impact on small maps where OB opportunities are scarce.

One AI is slightly technologically more advanced than me (and built all Renaissance wonders), but other AIs are backwards. In 1795 nobody knows RPs or SciMeth yet. I could settle more internal cities and build even more cottages around them, but my resource ratio is already bad.
Simulations agree with you that technology progress is slightly too slow since late-medieval era. Will be adjusted next version.
On a sidenote, by design the resource ratio tends to fall off in later eras. A ratio of 0.4 to 0.6 in modern times is nothing to worry about. A ratio of 0.2 or less is possible for very large, expansionistic empires, but those naturally have the necessary resources to back it up.

4. AI razes too much? On other continent I see many good cities razed (old cities, riverside, grassland, with food bonuses). But I suppose, it's K-mod AI, it likes to raze.
Simulation showed only 5 razed cities till 1800AD with 18 players, but we will keep an eye on that.
 
Unfortunately we have quit playing this MOD due to OOS at turn 60.

It would be nice if you could fix it.
Very unfortunate indeed, but thanks for your report.

-Did you experience only one OOS in turn 60, or was the game full of OOS errors from turn 60 onward? I assume you have tried continuing despite the OOS error (one person stays in the game and the rest rejoins) but it wasn't successful?
-Did you play with events? If so, you can try disabling events mid-game (save the game, change FIRST_DELAY_TURNS in everyone's GlobalDefines.xml to 1000, then load the game again).

Of cause, fixing the error at hand would be even better. Can you supply us with save game and logs so we can take a look at it?

Oh, and do you have a planned time of day at which you start your weekend games? I'd be interested to give it a shot this saturday or sunday.
 
Glad to see such a big group giving it a shot and thanks for the feedback. I would love to know if the bad research/production balance still comes up in your second game now that your group knows that generating research can be a bit tougher than in BTS. Maybe focussing a bit more on generating early commerce is all it takes? (Connecting cities for trade bonus as quickly as possible; using scouts/galleys to quickly find AI players for open borders possibilities; employing scientists instead of working tiles can give you a decent early research boost even when going for cottage spam and a great scientist is nice boost for your research; not settling too many cities before the research of currency).
Or maybe your problems still persist and we need to make early commerce easier, either regarding your game speed/map settings or in general. With how many (AI) players did you play? And do you usually sign open border agreements between human players?

OK, after several test games i must admit that while teching is harder than in Vanilla BTS, it's much more playable than it seemed at first, even on Emperor difficulty. Avoiding overexpansion and right use of civics are the key.

About the floodplain cottages, I understand your reasoning, and it's probably as much a non-issue for most people as it was for me on the random maps we've played. (We mostly stuck to Pangea btw. Two test launches with your Totestra script gave almost no rivers and hills. I'm not saying your script sucks, but i'm not convinced :p)

However, our group loves to mostly play on a pre-set Earth Map (the infamous EarthEvolution, also known as the most fun map you'll ever play), on which this setting gives a bunch of floodplain-heavy civs (Egypt, Mali, Babylon) a really hard time. Since it's easily fixable with a quick XML edit, i'm not giving it much thought anymore.

About the OOS issue yorik mentioned... This is the first oos-stable mod i've ever seen, so huge congratulations for that! From time to time, it will pop up (the main trigger seems to be random events), but unlike so many other great mods it does not tend to stick around after a quick reconnect. I don't know how you managed to make a mod with this many changes this stable, but you really deserve some medal for that. :)
 
Actually, concerning the flood plain cottages, simply wait for machinery and go watermills. I specialized a GE city with flood plains all along the cities BFC, and the results were rather.. Epic :D.
Even a few of them made a huge difference along some of my other cities.
TBH though, I took a quick peek at the game core files because I was rather curious about some of the major differences in this mod. Rather interesting overall after a bit of shock and adjustments, well done guys.
I do think that some minor tweaks may be in order, as your mod team seems to favor select maps. Certain other maps in my tests have yielded some rather odd dilemmas, which made playing a tad frustrating. No worries, as Arthras stated above, xml edits arn't really difficult.
 
OK, after several test games i must admit that while teching is harder than in Vanilla BTS, it's much more playable than it seemed at first, even on Emperor difficulty. Avoiding overexpansion and right use of civics are the key.
Excellent!

(We mostly stuck to Pangea btw. Two test launches with your Totestra script gave almost no rivers and hills. I'm not saying your script sucks, but i'm not convinced :p)
We simply prefer Totestra (written by Sam Trenholmes, btw) for it's realistic appearance and colonizable continent, but by all means play what is most fun for you. ;)
Sometimes totestra fails to generate any hills or rivers whatsover, but if you could see any of them, it is working correctly. You might try toggling the "Reduce Mountains" option to get more or less mountains/hills - and rivers, since those often spawn at mountain locations.

TBH though, I took a quick peek at the game core files because I was rather curious about some of the major differences in this mod. Rather interesting overall after a bit of shock and adjustments, well done guys.
About the OOS issue yorik mentioned... This is the first oos-stable mod i've ever seen, so huge congratulations for that! From time to time, it will pop up (the main trigger seems to be random events), but unlike so many other great mods it does not tend to stick around after a quick reconnect. I don't know how you managed to make a mod with this many changes this stable, but you really deserve some medal for that. :)
:king: Reading feedback is always a pleasure, but even more so if it is as magnificent as yours. Thanks! :goodjob:

I do think that some minor tweaks may be in order, as your mod team seems to favor select maps. Certain other maps in my tests have yielded some rather odd dilemmas, which made playing a tad frustrating. No worries, as Arthras stated above, xml edits arn't really difficult.
Even if they are fixable with quick xml edits it would be interesting to know with which maps you had difficulties and why. Maybe we can't offee the full experience for all map scripts - Archipelago is radically different from pangea-like totestra, after all - but maybe we can improve it without sacrificing core gameplay nonetheless. Currently we have some changes in the pipeline to improve open borders agreements for small map sizes.
 
I can't believe I've only found this just now, I really should check this subforum more often. Well done guys!

It's nice to see that DoC served as inspiration for some of this content. I definitely see some features that are recognizable from popular DoC discussion topics. And a lot of the stuff here is really interesting. Even though I do not agree with all the design decisions, I'll certainly visit some of the features and some of them might find their way back into my projects :)

Great to see the Civ4 community can still produce things like this.
 
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