Combat Strategy ??? Tips and Advice!

[Arathorn]

Yes, but what's keeping them from doing the same thing?

Your units positioned at key locations -- like hills you need to protect? If they're in forests, they're probably not pillaging anyway -- most stuff to pillage is on flat lands. Once they move there -- BAM! Horse archer (has the advantage) In your territory, you have the benefit of better movement. You can block off various passages/tiles/plots and guide the interloper to flat land for the kill, or goad him into attacking you, where you have the terrain advantage.

In a larger sense, though, yeah, both lands get pillaged. War is hell, sometimes. If you're not prepared, it can be doubly so.

What I generally do is use Civics, barracks, and promotions to my advantage. OK, so the axeman's best counter may be an axeman. I'll have an extra promotion, so I've a reasonable shot at winning the first combat (on level ground, of course). Promotions lead to better chances. If I lose the first one, I'll mop up and still have a 1:1 kill ratio, but my unit is now promoted. I'll be more ready the next time they come in.

Arathorn

 

[Kolson]

Yes, but what's keeping them from doing the same thing? Then we can both walk around trashing each others lands knowing that the one that tries to actually defend his countryside will be at a disadvantage because the offender gets the defensive bonus.

But this is where the strategy actually comes in. If both of you are out pillaging land and avoiding battles you cant win and trying to exploit the other player's weakness, then the better strategist will prevail. The person who is able to plunder more efficiently, or choose his battles better, or build the larger/more balanced military will win.

This is not a bad thing.

 

[Lorteungen]

ok here's something not just related to combat in civ4 but life in general:

IT's always better to look at the possibilities and solutions than the limitations. See what you CAN do to improve your odds and get what you want, rather than spend all your time focusing on why you cannot get it. Get it?

Nope, I don't. First of all it's game. The rules are made by people, not by god, so they can be changed. As a general rule of life I'd rather look to see what I can do to improve something than to live with something that is less than what it could be. Besides, this is a discussion board and what better subject than how to improve the game.

 

[Colonel Kraken]

There are some good observations here and I appreciate it.

The reason this thread started is because of the apparent inequity I saw. I had two nations attacking me (the scum!) which wasn't so much a problem . . . so I thought. I had plenty of Praetorians, Archers, Horse Archers, etc. However, whenever I moved into a position to attack an AI stack, NONE of my units had better than ~ 0.75 to 1 odds against the selected defending unit. I thought, heck, why is everyone praising these Praetorians so much? They aren't worth jack.

I guess, from what most of you have said, you MUST have catapults to attack . . . otherwise you really can't expect to attack successfully without sacrificing a lot of units.

Interesting.

Now, if we can only make a mod that does not force you to sacrifice a catapult to attack a stack of units.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I assume this was done so someone couldn't use catapult stack of doom over and over. The only thing I have to say against that then is this: use catapults in return to cause collateral damage! I simply do not understand the rationale of making the seige unit sacrifice to attack.

Thanks for all the tips. Keep 'em coming!

 

[Vizzini]

Don't get me started on real life.

I'm talking about game mechanics

The two are related. You seem to think that you can capture a defended city without losses - and in both real life and in this game's mechanics that is simply not possible without extensive use of siege units like artillery or bombers.

You will take losses in almost every attempt to take a city (certain exceptions apply of course), so plan ahead and bring a substantial attack force... 3 to 1 attackers to defenders is a good margin. (ie, if there are 4 defending units bring 12 attacking units) If the defender out-techs you, make it 4 to 1 or even 5 to 1 before you actually commit to the attack.

This was true when the general said it, it is still true today: "The firstest with the mostest wins"

Edit:

However, whenever I moved into a position to attack an AI stack, NONE of my units had better than ~ 0.75 to 1 odds against the selected defending unit. I thought, heck, why is everyone praising these Praetorians so much? They aren't worth jack.

Terrain terrain terrain terrain. When operating in the open you absolutely must pay attention to terrain. Lure your opponent into flat terrain - attacking them while they're on hills, woods, or worse a wooded hillside is almost suicidal.

 

[Arathorn]

Now, if we can only make a mod that does not force you to sacrifice a catapult to attack a stack of units.

Sure, it's easy to make catapults overpowering again. Just set their retreat percent to 100 in the appropriate XML file and you have a unit that won't die on the attack. It'll do collateral damage and you can redline foes with ease and not pay any price for it. You can do that with all the artillery units, if you want.

I'll stick with gameplay balance myself.

Arathorn

 

[WetWarev7]

I guess, from what most of you have said, you MUST have catapults to attack . . . otherwise you really can't expect to attack successfully without sacrificing a lot of units.

Thanks for all the tips. Keep 'em coming!

That's one way of doing it, and certainly the best when laying seige to a walled city(in game or RL), but it's not the only way, and it's important not to get stuck on one strategy. You may have all your cats heading toward the enemy's capitol when you notice a large enemy stack heading towards yours and if you're not flexible/adaptable enough, you're doomed. Barbs are really good for practicing different techniques - they won't capture your cites, and they are allready holding a grudge against you.

 

[phungus420]

This game give units on defense a huge advantage.

When you go to war, bring artillary.

Have a 3-1 combat advantage if you intent on takeing a city/hill.

But my best advice, and what works for me in MP games is simpy, do not attack. Fight a war of atrition. Take your stack, and wander around your opponents contryside pillaging everything. You will make alot of $$ in the process, and he will be fored to fileld his units against you (giving you the combat advantage). When I fight in MP, this is what I do, and it works every time. Every time I've failed in a war is when I got greedy micalculated the odds and tried to take a city. You don't need to do this if you are wrecking your opponents economy. That's my advice, and trust me it works. Although most don't have the patience to do this. (also this is a mostly MP thing to do, agains the AI it is much easier to take cities).

 

[Myrrdin]

Anyone tried making faint attacks against the AI? I have noticed how the AI tends to draw away units from cities far from the front to help combatting your attackers. So maybe it's worthwhile to begin a campaign by moving a decently sized stack (6-8 units) close to a city far from your intended target(s) and fortify them in some good defensive position. I'm not sure that it works, but it might be worth a shot.

 

[Draax]

I was annoyed at first about this issue too, but some thought and practice fixed that. I remembered reading somewhere that all else being equal, defenders have about a 10:1 advantage over attackers in a siege. That's where you start at. Gotta work from there or you'll throw 10x your enemy's soldiers into the blender.


Some siegecraft and misc attacking strats/tactics that I've developed (keep in mind that we're all still learning this game so have a grain of salt handy):

Strategy:
-Time your unit production. Your goal should be to spend as few turns as possible to create your entire army. Using only part of your civ to produce a steady stream of units really really hurts you in the long run. Use every feasible city to create your mounts, then your melee, then your defense units, then your siege units. Ideally these come out sorta as waves.

-When making units, always always have your civics set to vassalage and theocracy if you have those available. Period. No exceptions. With a barracks, that puts your units at I think 8/10 XP right off the bat. Huge.

-If you don't have roads to the enemy border, build'em. Again this really isn't an option if you're planning on conquest. Roads aren't absolutely necessary for raiding, but that's a different subject.

-Oh and while I'm thinking about it, religion is beautiful. Think of missionaries as intelligence and cash. Any city you've preached the word to gives you vision. Great for ambushing and counter-ambushing. So plan ahead and spread the good word brother.

-Bear in mind that strategy from history is valid here. Starvation was/is a key factor in siegecraft. Use it.

-Be sure to keep your units upgraded. It's cheaper and faster, and produces higher quality units. If necessary, put your research down to 0% for a turn or two and upgrade everything when the new tech is available. I've had my starting warrior survive for a full game and end up with over 20 XP.

Tactics:
-I go mounted/raid units first because I like to "shock and awe" like it's 1999. I place them as close to the enemy boundaries as possible, spread as widely as possible. As soon as they're in place, I blitz. My goal here is to generally raise as much hell as possible. First priority is units. I steal as many workers as I can quickly reach, and kill any military units that are in transit. I don't f*ck with spearmen or elephants. They'll eat me. Second priority is food and special resources that aren't adjacent to an enemy city. I raze them to the ground. It's a decent bit of cash and it's going to nicely set up my next phase. Then I get the hell out of dodge. I heal when I'm back on friendly ground.

-The melee wave should be out now. Axes, spears, and swords, oh my! This is where those roads come in handy because melees are slowasses. This is my next step of (pre)siege. My goal here is to park on the tiles next to a city. Same priorities as before, only I don't raze. I just fortify my guys on top of farms, mines (especially good since you get hill defense), special tiles, etc. I'm masterfully baiting the enemy here. He has to choose between coming out to meet me and losing his defense bonuses, or starving and not producing anything. Even if he kills my guy, I win because I can then kill his guy next turn. That's one less unit in his city, and I still control the tile.
Oh and another high priority is chokepoints. Spears and axes are great choke defenders. If I'm really concerned, I park a spear/axe combo in a chokepoint and build a fort there. I really hate having my own tactics used against me, and this is a good counter to raid units.

-My ranged units and freshly healed raiders should be en route now. I use them to harden injured or valuable parts of my army. This is where I finish surrounding a city. Note on longbowmen: I almost always put 2 levels of city defense first as that's what I'm going to do with them 9/10 times.

-Finally, my siege units arrive. I level collateral damage first and always. Heh, I've never had one survive long enough to get anything else. First I bombard the city until its defense % is lower than 5. Then I sacrifice siege units until my combat odds are a sure bet. Then I conquer the city, permanently parking longbows there and temporarily parking injured units there. I plan for a culture bomb if possible.

-If you managed to read this far, have a cookie on the house.

Edits
Good christ there were a billion posts while I wrote this book.
Yes, siege units are expendable. This is historically accurate.
Oh and Vizzini here you go:

War is a matter of getting there the firstest with the mostest.

I love that quote.

 

[WetWarev7]

-If you managed to read this far, have a cookie on the house.

Can I have a cracker instead?

Good post. I hadn't thought of building my army "on the fly" like that. How do you remain flexible with this plan? It's a good offense, but how do you handle it when another enemy(or ally) sends stacks of troops into your territory from the other direction?

 

[Draax]

Can I have a cracker instead?

Good post. I hadn't thought of building my army "on the fly" like that. How do you remain flexible with this plan? It's a good offense, but how do you handle it when another enemy(or ally) sends stacks of troops into your territory from the other direction?

Hmm I wasn't clear enough on the planning part then. My bad. I don't build my army "on the fly" per se, I just build it fast as hell. I prepare for building it well in advance. The preparation via religion, roads, forts, relationships, etc. takes a long time.

I kiss as much ass as possible early game in order to seed my missionaries far and wide. Then I pick a direction that I want to advance in, and really cultivate relationships in the other direction. That helps protect my rear.

As for remaining flexible, I mainly just try to minimize risk with allies, religion, and forts. Religion is like cheating. It gives you vision and helps you watch troop movement.

I have been nailed a couple of times but usually the timing works so that my raiders are back home and healing when this happens. I lose a few tiles but then my fast-movers are available to buy me some reaction time.

Edit: I really can't say enough good things about religion. Your state religion gives you vision anywhere it is present. Early game I prioritize religion as much as I can. Founding more than one religion is such a huge advantage it's silly.

 

[petey]

I like the Theocracy + Vassalage mode to build units. In terms of using it in case of defense, too, one option would be to switch all cities to this for a few turns and build three of four units in each city, then switch to Organized Religion and building production for a few turns and then switch back to produce units, etc.

This would cause a lot of anarchy, but would be a good way to maximize the benefits of a Religious trait, which I've always seen as kind of useless, but would actually be really good here. If you switch back and forth and synchronize production in all your cities with the appropriate civics, then it would be a really good trait to have.

 

[Brutus2]

My goal here is to park on the tiles next to a city. Same priorities as before, only I don't raze. I just fortify my guys on top of farms, mines (especially good since you get hill defense), special tiles, etc. I'm masterfully baiting the enemy here. He has to choose between coming out to meet me and losing his defense bonuses, or starving and not producing anything.

Wait just a minute!!! Are you telling me that just parking a unit on a farm or mine within an enemy city radius will prevent them from getting that resource/food/happiness, etc? You don't have to actually pillage it to remove it from their resources?

Say an enemy has one source of Ivory. I park a unit on that tile but do NOT pillage the camp. He will no longer be able to make War Elephants, even though I did not pillage the camp and it is still within his cultural borders?

 

[Draax]

Wait just a minute!!! Are you telling me that just parking a unit on a farm or mine within an enemy city radius will prevent them from getting that resource/food/happiness, etc? You don't have to actually pillage it to remove it from their resources?

Yes sir

Look closely at the tiles your units are standing on. The graphic changes. Rice farms flood, cows leave their fence, plantations wither, etc.

 

[Speciou5]

Regarding the original post about the defender getting to choose who fights. The trick to beat this is to overload on a unit. If the defender has 3 axemen and one spearmen either overwhelm the spearmen with cavalry or wound the spearmen and proceed with cavalry. If the defender has 3 axemen, 3 spearmen and you have 3 swordsmen and 3 cavalry, then you probably shouldn't be attacking 1:1 (unless you are very desperate) without an advantage such as artillery to collateral them.

The tip is to send mixed forces such as Swordsmen, Axemen, and Horse Archers and overload. If you can't overload and are matched in strength, find some advantage. But that shouldn't be too much of a problem because you should have some advantage if you are the aggressor. If you don't have an advantage, make one. If that fails fight a costly war, hope your opponent has poor strategy and tactics, or sue for peace. But you really should have stopped at the first condition.

 

[snepp]

Yes sir

Look closely at the tiles your units are standing on. The graphic changes. Rice farms flood, cows leave their fence, plantations wither, etc.

I don't believe this is accurate. Parking a unit on a tile will prevent the city's citizens from working that tile, but the empire will still recieve the resources from that tile. Pillaging is required to deny access.

 

[dh_epic]

The defender has an advantage in that their "best" unit will always defend. They get the "defender's choice".

You have to be prepared to lose units. The first few attackers will be used to weaken the best defenders. After that, the battle changes.

I find it's smart to take advantage of promotions. If you're attacking a city, city siege is a no brainer. City Siege 2 can be enough to overcome the huge defensive advantage of a lot of units.

 

[Brutus2]

I don't believe this is accurate. Parking a unit on a tile will prevent the city's citizens from working that tile, but the empire will still recieve the resources from that tile. Pillaging is required to deny access.

So basically you do have to pillage a resource improvment (iron, oil, ivory, wine, silk, etc) but you do not have to pillage a standard worker improved tile if your goal is just to stop them from working that tile (farm, cottage, workshop, etc)???

So if the city has a cow pasture and I park a unit on it, they no longer get the +food because they can not work that tile but they still get the +health effect of having cows as a resource??

 

[Brutus2]

-When making units, always always have your civics set to vassalage and theocracy if you have those available

I would also reccomend keeping an eye on what civic your neighbors are switching to. If you see a message that your pesky neighbor who is already annoyed with you has just switched to Vassalage and Theocracy you can guess what's going to happen next.