Discussion: Civilizations and Leaders

[cfkane]

All good. For the Ivan trait, I could probably write a few events that will occur only to him.

But let's keep in mind a lot of these are subject to change. I can think of quite a few of these traits that would require SDK changes. Since we don't have any SDK coders on our team, they probably won't make it in.

 

[cfkane]

I written up a new trait, Heroic, that gives all Hero units Combat 1 when built. This should open up a lot more trait combinations to allow for more leaders in the future.

I'm in the process of re-assigning traits to leaders, so expect to see a new version with these changes posted soon. I'll also be adding a new leader to the mix.

 

[Midnight-Blue766]

My suggestion for an alternate France civ (this is allowed, right?)

FRANCE
Leader: Charlemagne (Her/Imp)
LU: Paladin (8 , starts with Shock & Celebrity I)
Superhero: Roland

 

[Dumanios]

My suggestions:

Canada

Led by:Stephen Abootman(South Park)
UU:Canada Corps(Infantry)
UB:Microwave Station(Broadcast Tower)
LU:Mountie
SH:Wolverine

Robotic Empire
Led by:GLaDOS
UU:Robotic Soldier(Mech Infantry)
UB:Control Tower(Broadcast Tower,No maintenance in city)
LU:Terminator
SH:Skynet

Mongolia
Led by:Etzel the Hun and Borat
LU:Hun Archer
SH:Gesar

 

[Moogi]

Mongolia
Led by:Etzel the Hun and Borat
LU:Hun Archer
SH:Gesar

Neither of those leaders are Mongolian, but I like the idea of making a civ to represent the Central Asian tribes. I also like your choice of leaders. I suggest adding Shan-Yu from Disney's Mulan, as well.

Also, I think Marvel Comics' Mandarin could work as a Superhero, since he is supposed to be a descendant of Genghis Khan (then again, so is .5% of everyone alive today, but still...).

 

[Dibukk]

Well, are T'Challa and Jaffe Joffer Zulu? Is Tschibinda Ilunga from Mali? I think sometimes you have to bend the rules a bit especially concering tribal societies like these. But I agree that the peoples of Central Asia deserve a place in this mod! Some ideas:

Possible Leaders:

Gesar - Honestly, IMO King Gesar as the leader of a fictionalized Mongolia is as obvious as Genghis Khan for the real Mongols
Timur - while being a historical ruler, too, there is a famous tale about Timur forging the world's first sword
Etzel the Hun - the Nibelungs' fictional counterpart of Attila... meh, a possibility
Shan Yu - Moogi already mentioned him and I agree: he would be a great Central Asian leader
Borias - Central Asian warlord from from Xena, another great possibility
Tengri - the supreme deity of Tengriism (the main religion of Central Asia)
Bai-Ulgan - another major deity of Tengriism and possibly more likely to rule mortals directly than his divine father Tengri

Legendary Unit:

This one's tough. The horsemen are probably the best known part of Central Asian culture so I suggest we introduce a unit based on legendary horsemen. I propose the name Ülger which is a general term given to tales and popular myths of the Mongols and Buryats of north-east Asia. I think this could be interpreted as "legendary hero".
If you want something else, here are some curiosities from Mongolian myths:

-Death Worm - a 2 to 5 feet long cryptid worm capable of spitting deadly acid
-At-Beyi - these "lords of horses" are mythological ancestors of the Mongolian horses and could become scouting units or Mares of Diomedes-like flesh eating horses
-Pitsen - a shapeshifting Siberian forest monster
-Zilant - something between a dragon and a wyvern from Tatar folklore

Regarding the Superhero, I think that Mandarin looks like a good choice.

 

[Moogi]

Well, are T'Challa and Jaffe Joffer Zulu? Is Tschibinda Ilunga from Mali? I think sometimes you have to bend the rules a bit especially concering tribal societies like these. But I agree that the peoples of Central Asia deserve a place in this mod! Some ideas:

Possible Leaders:

Gesar - Honestly, IMO King Gesar as the leader of a fictionalized Mongolia is as obvious as Genghis Khan for the real Mongols
Etzel the Hun - the Nibelungs' fictional counterpart of Attila... meh, a possibility
Shan Yu - Moogi already mentioned him and I agree: he would be a great Central Asian leader


Legendary Unit:

This one's tough. The horsemen are probably the best known part of Central Asian culture so I suggest we introduce a unit based on legendary horsemen. I propose the name Ülger which is a general term given to tales and popular myths of the Mongols and Buryats of north-east Asia. I think this could be interpreted as "legendary hero".
If you want something else, here are some curiosities from Mongolian myths:

-Zilant - something between a dragon and a wyvern from Tatar folklore

Regarding the Superhero, I think that Mandarin looks like a good choice.

These are my preferences from your list. I hate to make cfkane make three more leaderheads, but this seems like a great area to explore with the mod.

Etzel was mentioned in one of the earlier pedias, so he's already in continuity.

EDIT: I just had an idea for a joke civ. You probably shouldn't include it, but I thought the idea was mildly amusing. I am referring, of course, to the Hobo Empire from John Hodgman's absurdist epic, The Areas of my Expertise. It would be led by Joey Stink-Eye Smiles, the last great hobo leader.

 

[cfkane]

You know, adding the Mongols back into the game could be a pretty good idea. I probably won't do anything with it yet, since I still want to focus on A) finishing up the last two leaderheads we need and B) rounding out the unique Superhero system.

I might add it in a future update along with some new leaders for other civs (now that we have the Heroic trait there's a lot of trait combinations freed up).

And in the far future, I'll probably add the Animal Empire (a combination of things like DC comics' Gorilla City, The Blazing World, Babar's Kingdom and several other sources) once I can get a solid UnitArtsyles set for it.

 

[Moogi]

You know, adding the Mongols back into the game could be a pretty good idea. I probably won't do anything with it yet, since I still want to focus on A) finishing up the last two leaderheads we need and B) rounding out the unique Superhero system.

I might add it in a future update along with some new leaders for other civs (now that we have the Heroic trait there's a lot of trait combinations freed up).

And in the far future, I'll probably add the Animal Empire (a combination of things like DC comics' Gorilla City, The Blazing World, Babar's Kingdom and several other sources) once I can get a solid UnitArtsyles set for it.

Only two more leaderheads? Who are they?

Also, once we get around to writing a pedia entry for the Animal Empire, it is imperative that we work in a reference to Chicken Run.

 

[Dibukk]

Only two more leaderheads? Who are they?

That would be Xerxes and Louis XVI. I'm really looking forward to see my favourite God-King!

Cfkane, looking into the Music folder I noticed there is a file entitled 'Luthor'. Is there a plan to add Lex Luthor as a (probably American) leader? (By the way, great choices of music)

On an unrelated topic, what's the status on your plan to add the Snow Queen (Sneedronningen) as a Norse leader?

 

[johnny139]

Cfkane, looking into the Music folder I noticed there is a file entitled 'Luthor'. Is there a plan to add Lex Luthor as a (probably American) leader? (By the way, great choices of music)

Huh, I was actually going to recommend him, but then I realized that not only does America have three leaders already, but they're all from the modern era, so he might not be the best choice. Though I certainly wouldn't complain about seeing him...

...also, Mongolia being re-added would be great. It's definitely a major group, both in the real world and in fiction. I'd also like to see Carthage with Dido, but, y'know, won't push my luck.

 

[Moogi]

So, where are all the other leaderheads? Aside from cfkane's, I mean. Are they all ones that were done by other users? If so, can someone show me where I can see them?

 

[cfkane]

That would be Xerxes and Louis XVI. I'm really looking forward to see my favourite God-King!

Cfkane, looking into the Music folder I noticed there is a file entitled 'Luthor'. Is there a plan to add Lex Luthor as a (probably American) leader? (By the way, great choices of music)

On an unrelated topic, what's the status on your plan to add the Snow Queen (Sneedronningen) as a Norse leader?

The Luthor music is actually a relic from an earlier version. I originally had Luthor as a leader for America (he was elected president in a Superman story arc), but I dropped him in favor of the three we have now. I did this mainly for continuity issues. DC comics' continuity is so mangled that they apparently have to have a Crisis just to kill off different one-shot issues and storylines that went nowhere.

And the Snow Queen is definitely being added, it's just that I have a lot I need to get done first both with the mod and in real life (end-of-term papers and whatnot).

 

[Dibukk]

Just recently, I realized that we forget one major subgenre of fiction: Hollow Earth. There are numerous novels, films, comics and so on, that take place (or at least mention) a subterrean continent. Just think of work such as Niels Klim's Underground Travels, Plutonia, The Smoky God and, probably the best known one, A Journey to the Center of the Earth.
Realizing this, I started this little project of designing a subterrean empire as an umbrella term for all these different worlds.

Here's what I have so far:

Name:
There are plenty of different underground worlds but I'd suggest one of the following as they seem to be the most important:
Agartha - Popular subject in Esotericism which is often related to the myth of Shangri-La. In our continuity, this could mean that the Shambhalese people send explorers inside the Hollow Earth who founded the city of Shamballah.
Pellucidar - Stone Age world from Tarzan novels by Edgar R. Burroughs. Populated by primitive tribes, species like the Ape Man and beasts such as dinosaurs and mammoths.
Skartaris - Hollow Earth fantasy setting from DC's comic Warlord. Once more, this is a world populated by primitive people of various levels of culture ranging from the primitive to medieval city states such as Shamballah.
Subterranea - Network of massive caves, passages, and tunnels from Marvel comics. Devided between the Moloids (mole people ruled by Mole Man) and the Lava Men.

Leader:
Honestly, no clue. Mole Man would be a possibility but I'd prefer him as a superhero. Tyrannus from Marvel Comics might do as well.

Unique Unit:
Much Hollow Earth fiction depicts the subterrean world as prehistoric including extinct creatures such as dinosaurs. Thus, I suggest to replace war elephants with war mammoths.

Legendary Unit:
I've got several ideas for this one:
Marvel's Subterranea introduces interesting races such as the Moloids ("Mole People") and the Lava Men. I guess both would fit well as LUs.
Pellucidar from the Tarzan novels is inhabited by prehistoric creatures such as dinosaurs and mammoths as well s ficitonal species such as sentien ape-like creatures and the Mahars, intelligent flying reptiles resembling rhamphorhynchus with dangerous psychic powers. These would be nice LUs, I suppose.
While dwarves are already used as Alliance units, how about underground-dwelling Goblins as depicted in The Prince and the Goblin?

Superhero:
Mole Man seems to be an obvious choice. Still, if you want others how about Deimos, the Warlord, Tyrannus or the Balrog?

Some cities:
Agartha, Tsath, New Shamballah, Mizora, Og, Arq

The subterrean worlds I've found so far:
Agartha, Pellucidar (Tarzan), Skartaris (DC Comics), Subterranea (Marvel Comics), K'n-yan (Cthulhu Mythos), Pluto (A Journey to the Center of the Earth), Plutonia, Arq (Arqtiq), abandoned dwarven fortresses (Lord of the Rings), world of the Fattypuffs and Thinifers, Lower Elements (Artemis Fowl), Empire of Alsondons, Ruffal (La vie, les avanture, and le voyage de Groenland du Révérend Père Cordelier Pierre de Mesange), realm of Malkariss (Mattimeo), Arachna (Spider Riders), Og (The Secret World of Og), Atavatabar (The Goddess of Atavatabar ), realm of the Goblins (The Prince and the Goblin), Vril society (The Coming Race), Kosekin Country (A Strange Manuscript Found in a Copper Cylinder) and Hellmouth (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)

If you're interested in this topic, this Wikipedia article should proof useful.

So, what do you think?


PS: On a completely unrelated topic, you might want to check out this MMOPRG called The Secret World. It features a setting that is somehow similiar to what we do here, only it revolves mainly around conspiracies and myths.

 

[cfkane]

It's an interesting idea, certainly. Though I might have the leader be one of the Vril from The Coming Race.

Still, I'm not sure how well this can be worked in. All of the other civs at least live on the Earth's surface, so I don't know how well a subterranean race could be represented in civ without some MAJOR changes to the game core. That said, aspects of the Hollow Earth idea can certainly be worked in. I've had some ideas about an Alliance wonder for the Vril, and once I get around to adding World Improvements (something I've had in my mind for a long time), adding openings to the Hollow Earth could add an interesting aspect.


Oh, and I've changed my mind about including Lord of the Rings. The throwaway reference to it in the Scudder pedia just opened up a whole can of worms. I don't think I can reconcile the very deep and complex history of Middle Earth with our own earth's prehistory.

 

[Dibukk]

I think we can avoid problems by making the Hollow Earth another normal civ. Civilization is no reflection of history but more like a what-if scenario. The same thing applys Fictionalization. You can play the USA during the Stone Age or lead a present-day Inca empire. You can create a Native American nation that constructs wonders such as Alkoremi and Statue of Judgment while commanding Allan Quartermain and Fu Manchu. Atlantis isn't restricted to an island and Aquaman doesn't lead an underwater empire, neither. I seriously think we can take the liberty of using Hollow Earth fiction as a normal civ. Well, we might be able to give them a certain underground flair by adding unique images of cities that look like cave entrances or molehills.

Regarding the civ's name, I think Agartha would be the best term. Subterranea refers to a large system of tunnels and caves while Skartais and Pellucidar are the large cave surrounding the core of the Earth. In contrary, Agartha is an umbrella term coresponding to all subterrean worlds.

I did some research and I have to say it's hard to find infos about the Vril-ya as there are not only the fictional subterrean master race but also a secret society and several conspiracy theories. Are there any named Vril-ya that could become a leader?

What do you think about the UU, the LU and the Superhero?

 

[cfkane]

Well, okay. But there are still a lot of barriers to getting something like that done. For one thing, I don't think I'll do it without proper artwork. One thing the mod still lacks is someone on hand who can churn out units and buildings. A lot of the art work now is still only placeholders. Having a whole new art set would do it justice, but I'm still unsure of how to best represent a Hollow Earth civ when they're not even shown as being under the Earth. For something like the Animal empire idea all that's holding me back is a good unitmaker who can flesh out the artstyles. For the Hollow Earth, damn I'd need to see concept sketches or something.

 

[Midnight-Blue766]

Just recently, I realized that we forget one major subgenre of fiction: Hollow Earth. There are numerous novels, films, comics and so on, that take place (or at least mention) a subterrean continent. Just think of work such as Niels Klim's Underground Travels, Plutonia, The Smoky God and, probably the best known one, A Journey to the Center of the Earth.
Realizing this, I started this little project of designing a subterrean empire as an umbrella term for all these different worlds.

Here's what I have so far:

Name:
There are plenty of different underground worlds but I'd suggest one of the following as they seem to be the most important:
Agartha - Popular subject in Esotericism which is often related to the myth of Shangri-La. In our continuity, this could mean that the Shambhalese people send explorers inside the Hollow Earth who founded the city of Shamballah.
Pellucidar - Stone Age world from Tarzan novels by Edgar R. Burroughs. Populated by primitive tribes, species like the Ape Man and beasts such as dinosaurs and mammoths.
Skartaris - Hollow Earth fantasy setting from DC's comic Warlord. Once more, this is a world populated by primitive people of various levels of culture ranging from the primitive to medieval city states such as Shamballah.
Subterranea - Network of massive caves, passages, and tunnels from Marvel comics. Devided between the Moloids (mole people ruled by Mole Man) and the Lava Men.

Leader:
Honestly, no clue. Mole Man would be a possibility but I'd prefer him as a superhero. Tyrannus from Marvel Comics might do as well.

Unique Unit:
Much Hollow Earth fiction depicts the subterrean world as prehistoric including extinct creatures such as dinosaurs. Thus, I suggest to replace war elephants with war mammoths.

Legendary Unit:
I've got several ideas for this one:
Marvel's Subterranea introduces interesting races such as the Moloids ("Mole People") and the Lava Men. I guess both would fit well as LUs.
Pellucidar from the Tarzan novels is inhabited by prehistoric creatures such as dinosaurs and mammoths as well s ficitonal species such as sentien ape-like creatures and the Mahars, intelligent flying reptiles resembling rhamphorhynchus with dangerous psychic powers. These would be nice LUs, I suppose.
While dwarves are already used as Alliance units, how about underground-dwelling Goblins as depicted in The Prince and the Goblin?

Superhero:
Mole Man seems to be an obvious choice. Still, if you want others how about Deimos, the Warlord, Tyrannus or the Balrog?

Some cities:
Agartha, Tsath, New Shamballah, Mizora, Og, Arq

The subterrean worlds I've found so far:
Agartha, Pellucidar (Tarzan), Skartaris (DC Comics), Subterranea (Marvel Comics), K'n-yan (Cthulhu Mythos), Pluto (A Journey to the Center of the Earth), Plutonia, Arq (Arqtiq), abandoned dwarven fortresses (Lord of the Rings), world of the Fattypuffs and Thinifers, Lower Elements (Artemis Fowl), Empire of Alsondons, Ruffal (La vie, les avanture, and le voyage de Groenland du Révérend Père Cordelier Pierre de Mesange), realm of Malkariss (Mattimeo), Arachna (Spider Riders), Og (The Secret World of Og), Atavatabar (The Goddess of Atavatabar ), realm of the Goblins (The Prince and the Goblin), Vril society (The Coming Race), Kosekin Country (A Strange Manuscript Found in a Copper Cylinder) and Hellmouth (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)

If you're interested in this topic, this Wikipedia article should proof useful.

So, what do you think?


PS: On a completely unrelated topic, you might want to check out this MMOPRG called The Secret World. It features a setting that is somehow similiar to what we do here, only it revolves mainly around conspiracies and myths.

Gah... I have a book all about the Hollow Earth, though I forgot a lot of the information. How about:

Leader: John Symmes, who popularised the idea of a Hollow Earth. He believed that there were two great holes at the poles, from where you can go through to the Edenic Paradise that was within. There's another leader canidate from a novel that I read about in the same book, though I have to go back to find it.

UU: The War Mammoth sounds like a good idea.

UB: ???

LU: ???

SU: ???

To cfkane:

Here's a good portrait of Louis XVI:


Maybe a leaderhead based of the English King from Colonization? Or maybe Louis XIV?

In addition, are you thinking about my idea to add Charlemagne to France?

 

[cfkane]

Actually, I'm just about done with Louis and Louis. They should be released soon.

I don't think I'll add Charlemagne to France. I know how important he is to the history and all, but I'm hesitant to add anyone who isn't wrapped up in a big ol' ball of fiction. People like Louis and Haroun Al-Raschid were kind of cop-outs when I was planning.

And the more I think about it, the less plausible a Hollow Earth themed civ sounds. It seems like a concept best introduced by way of a special barbarian unit or Alliance or world improvement than a full blown "lives on the land just like everyone else" civ.

 

[Dibukk]

And the more I think about it, the less plausible a Hollow Earth themed civ sounds. It seems like a concept best introduced by way of a special barbarian unit or Alliance or world improvement than a full blown "lives on the land just like everyone else" civ.

I understand. Still, the Hollow Earth fiction is far to rich to be left out entirely. How about adding entrences to the Hollow Earth as world improvements? While these grant a great yield at the same time you have to risk being attacked by Mole People or other subterrean beasts.
Regarding Alliances, their are many different people that could become worthy allies such as the Mahars of Pellucidar, the barbarians of Skartaris, the Arq people from the novel Arqtiq, the mole-like Moloids from Marvel Comics and the death-worshipping Kosekin from A Strange Manuscript Found in a Copper Cylinder.