Egypt & Suggested Changes To TAM

[krasny]

Playing Egypt is really difficult in TAM, which is contrary to history. This is mainly because settling in the Nile valley limits population rather than boosts it.

I think the unhealthy points accrued from river valleys should be removed. At least as an option.

Also Egypt historically was protected from attack on their Western flank by desert. In TAM this desert does not protect Egypt.

Would it be possible to either make desert impassable or to inflict attrition on those moving across it? Or both to some degree.

 

[graywarden]

Playing Egypt is really difficult in TAM, which is contrary to history. This is mainly because settling in the Nile valley limits population rather than boosts it.

I think the unhealthy points accrued from river valleys should be removed. At least as an option.

Also Egypt historically was protected from attack on their Western flank by desert. In TAM this desert does not protect Egypt.

Would it be possible to either make desert impassable or to inflict attrition on those moving across it? Or both to some degree.

krasny,

which scenario map are you referring to? I test for the team and use the 24 civ huge med map. Yes, occasionally Egypt will have a mediocre game, but as a rule they are in the top five score. their main difficulty is their power struggle with the Nubians, then the Phonecians, if she can get the upper hand on these two, she can spread to challenge the world.
keep in mind the game is setup to where each and every civilization has a chance to become dominant in any given game. The great civs of history have a slight advantage over the not-so-great, but its not so much so that history is predictable. Rome suffers from the game mechanics more then any other great civ (historically), but as a rule it will hold its own, and when the starz are aligned will dominate.
the game is far from finished, there are many tweaks and balances that still remain on the To-Do list, but it is the cleanest version that has been out since the BTS conversion, so I recommend playing a lot more as your favorite civ and develop a strategy to dominate, and you will find that you can.

 

[krasny]

The 24 Civ huge map.

It may be possible through clever play for Egpyt to overcome it's poor position and triumph, BUT in reality the Nile valley is not a poor position for an ancient civilisation, it's an ideal position.

I strongly believe TAM should reflect this.

Is it possible to adjust the flood plain unhealthyness rule?

 

[graywarden]

The 24 Civ huge map.

It may be possible through clever play for Egpyt to overcome it's poor position and triumph, BUT in reality the Nile valley is not a poor position for an ancient civilisation, it's an ideal position.

I strongly believe TAM should reflect this.

Is it possible to adjust the flood plain unhealthyness rule?

It is of course possible, and I understand your position regarding the historical accuracy of the region. Again, though Thamis's (TAM Creator) game principle with this Mod is to find a balance for the "what if" game play. The unhealthiness can be overcome by other methods, an emphasis on healthy buildings, irrigation of the flood plains, and gaining more food types. The unhealthiniess is a balancer to the population boom that it provides. With a greater population in its cities, it is able to build more specialist, and wonders which again can give it an edge. Egypt is consistantly in the top five score because of that reason. An aggressive offensive strategy against your neighbors will give you the additional resources you need to become a true empire.

What you will find is that the TAM 24 scenario is actually too short in time. It needs another 100 turns or so to allow the full use of the tech tree and Spice Road Victory.
This item has been on the suggestion block for some time now, and I hope to have it approved the next development go-round.
Right now most TAM-DEV members are researching CIV5 to create a TAM5 from it.
So in the meantime experiment with different difficulty settings and strategies to more consistantly achieve the results you are hoping for. It is meant to be a challenge, not an easy walk over, and finding that balance with 24 civs is no easy accomplishment.

 

[krasny]

I understand that balancing is an important part of the game. But using such an ahistorical method does break the immersion somewhat.

However could not Egypt be balanced in a more historical fashion?

For example, Egypt was a very conservative society, a science penalty could be imposed upon them.

Or to reflect inbreeding a "Bad Leader" event could fire up every now and again.

Or tie Egyptian prosperity into building wonders, if Egypt does not build a wonder every x turns, happiness penalties are imposed upon them.

 

[graywarden]

I understand that balancing is an important part of the game. But using such an ahistorical method does break the immersion somewhat.

However could not Egypt be balanced in a more historical fashion?

For example, Egypt was a very conservative society, a science penalty could be imposed upon them.

Or to reflect inbreeding a "Bad Leader" event could fire up every now and again.

Or tie Egyptian prosperity into building wonders, if Egypt does not build a wonder every x turns, happiness penalties are imposed upon them.

Your focus is totally and completely on Egypt alone in all your comments. The mod is not titled the Ancient Mediterranean of Egypt, and its focus is not solely on any "one" ancient civilization. It was created to immerse the player in the ancient times in a general way, there is no industrial revolution or space age. The game ends at the mere beginnings of the dark ages linked to medieval times.

If you feel so strongly about Egypt being historically accurate in the many facets you have described, then you should create an Egyptian scenario and submit it to the TAM-DEV team to include in the package or publish it yourself.

If we were to strive to create one civilization to that level of accuracy, then we would have to create ALL to that level of accuracy, and this is just not feasible in the way that this mod was created by Thamis, nor has it been his intention to do so. This mod is an ancient civilization sandbox and its purpose is to give those who are looking for an alternative to "modern" era game play, a taste of ancient times. Again in a general sense and as accurately as possible and yet maintain a balance of game play with the other civilizations.

 

[krasny]

My observation about flood plains is not just related to Egypt, but about the game in general, that is, it's stupid.

I'm not obsessed with Egypt, I'm just citing Egypt as an example as to why this feature is stupid, especially so for a mod that aims to be more historically accurate than regular BTS.

Also I'm not trying to be awkward, I'm merely pointing out a flaw in the mod. Just because it's a feature of Civ4 doesn't mean it has to be imported into TAM.

Maybe the removing the unhealthy aspect of flood plains should be included in TAM as an option?

 

[graywarden]

My observation about flood plains is not just related to Egypt, but about the game in general, that is, it's stupid.

I'm not obsessed with Egypt, I'm just citing Egypt as an example as to why this feature is stupid, especially so for a mod that aims to be more historically accurate than regular BTS.

Also I'm not trying to be awkward, I'm merely pointing out a flaw in the mod. Just because it's a feature of Civ4 doesn't mean it has to be imported into TAM.

Maybe the removing the unhealthy aspect of flood plains should be included in TAM as an option?

You are of course entitled to your opinions, and I have simply responded to your statements and questions as best I can as a representative of the TAM-DEV group. I am by no means the sole authority, but having been a part of the group for a number of years now, there are certain things I can answer with some assurity. In regards to your comments and suggestions, I have answered them the best I can. If I had mis-spoken, one of the other members would have stepped and and added their thoughts to the discussion.

 

[Sprenk]

I've been playing this mod for the past week or two, and I must say, I'm thoroughly enjoying it.

What I like the most is that there are lots of little buildings, obtainable relatively early in the game, which can compensate for problems with health, culture, commerce, and happiness. Short on food? Build a hunting lodge. Struggling with health? Build a cemetery,well, aquaduct, etc, etc. There are no lack of options.

Krasny is right that the desert doesn't present an insurmountable barrier. But there's very little reason for Dido to expand rapidly from the west, given the unforgiving nature of the terrain. There's plenty of time for Egypt to expand it's army before trouble comes on that front, if it ever does.

I know that most TAM addicts are focused on Civ V now, but I saw this thread and thought I'd throw my two cents in. This mod is a strong one and deserves praise.

 

[graywarden]

I've been playing this mod for the past week or two, and I must say, I'm thoroughly enjoying it.

What I like the most is that there are lots of little buildings, obtainable relatively early in the game, which can compensate for problems with health, culture, commerce, and happiness. Short on food? Build a hunting lodge. Struggling with health? Build a cemetery,well, aquaduct, etc, etc. There are no lack of options.

Krasny is right that the desert doesn't present an insurmountable barrier. But there's very little reason for Dido to expand rapidly from the west, given the unforgiving nature of the terrain. There's plenty of time for Egypt to expand it's army before trouble comes on that front, if it ever does.

I know that most TAM addicts are focused on Civ V now, but I saw this thread and thought I'd throw my two cents in. This mod is a strong one and deserves praise.

Sprenk,

Thanks for the comments and praise.

One little counter to the concern over Dido being able to sweep east from the west, on the Huge Med 24 Civ map, and over a number of games you will notice that often as not that either Minos will settle in the Central Coastline or Egypt will race from East to West. Testing as Dido I often fight off Egypt and sometimes even Nubia invading from the East.

 

[Dr. Eszterhazy]

The AI Egyptians, Nubians and the Carthaginians seem to have a rough time when the barbarians start to show up, as they seem to spawn more in the desert areas. Occasionally a barbarian javelineer will sit outside their cities and endlessly hit the warriors defending the city, racking up an enormous amount of XP and leaving the cities vulnerable to the next barbarian warrior that wanders along. One or more of these empires are gone early in most of my games.

Other players have previously pointed out that it is extremely easy to warrior rush the AI and grab a city and one or two workers (depending on the difficulty). I think the AI ought to start with archery and/or archers like they do in a normal game of CIV4. This would help thwart the warrior rushes and allow the AI to hold out against the barbarians in the early game.

 

[graywarden]

The AI Egyptians, Nubians and the Carthaginians seem to have a rough time when the barbarians start to show up, as they seem to spawn more in the desert areas. Occasionally a barbarian javelineer will sit outside their cities and endlessly hit the warriors defending the city, racking up an enormous amount of XP and leaving the cities vulnerable to the next barbarian warrior that wanders along. One or more of these empires are gone early in most of my games.

Other players have previously pointed out that it is extremely easy to warrior rush the AI and grab a city and one or two workers (depending on the difficulty). I think the AI ought to start with archery and/or archers like they do in a normal game of CIV4. This would help thwart the warrior rushes and allow the AI to hold out against the barbarians in the early game.

Overall I agree, the barbarians could use a face-lift, though I have also seen the opposite occur as well, barbarian hordes making life miserable for the early game. Again this varies from game to game, but as a rule, it ranges from a nuisance to a challenge depending on how those variables line up.