Fastest Science Victory
- Thread starter Lightning5555
- Start date
). I have DoFs with several civs. I'm pretty sure I got my first one after getting reckless expansion, but it was with Gandhi. Then I managed to get a few more, most likely due to mutual friend bonuses.
IronfighterXXX
Work Hard - Play Hard
Spain on proper map is really God-tier civilization.
If more people play and have more patience to roll good map Spain would dominate all HOF tables.
Unfortunately, or fortunately it won't be a case in Civ6
adcarrymaokai
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2013
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- 1,616
I'd say fortunately. Hopefully, all the gimmicks from civ5, like bulbing, overflow, WF+GA+writers, and others will not see the light of the day in Civ VI.Unfortunately, or fortunately it won't be a case in Civ6
I think you're in good shape for a sub-180 at the very least. I also had 2 observatories only, and you're still 10+ turns ahead and you have RAs going. Will you be able to get 3 waves of RAs and enough faith for 3 GSs (or 3 GSs + 1 GE) before t170?
IronfighterXXX
Work Hard - Play Hard
After seeing Vadalaz' amazing game, I decided to finally give Spain a serious try. Managed to roll up something pretty special -- GBR in capital, and I found a pop ruin on the turn I settled. So, on t4 I had a 2-pop city working both GBR tiles and a Settler ready to start walking.
That's about as ridiculous as it gets. Unfortunately, the map otherwise isn't great. Things are cramped, there aren't any other good NWs in range, and I'm short on mountains, so I'll need to work at it a bit. But man, that start... Once in a lifetime opportunity.
I saved on t40, starting work on a 4-city NC. Education will be crazy fast here. Fingers crossed that I don't screw it up. I will share the save once I've finished.
That's about as ridiculous as it gets. Unfortunately, the map otherwise isn't great. Things are cramped, there aren't any other good NWs in range, and I'm short on mountains, so I'll need to work at it a bit. But man, that start... Once in a lifetime opportunity.
I saved on t40, starting work on a 4-city NC. Education will be crazy fast here. Fingers crossed that I don't screw it up. I will share the save once I've finished.
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Finished on t190. Definitely left a lot of turns on the table here.
Seven cities with 2 Observatories. (I had an 8th city at endgame, but that was captured purely for gold once the tech penalty didn't matter.) Wasn't quite enough beakers, and my bulbs were just barely too small to pick up second-to-last tier techs in one go. So I had to sit and wait as techs completed one turn at a time -- this probably could have been mitigated if I had anticipated and started bulbing a bit earlier. Improvement there might have gotten it down to t187.
A bigger area of possible improvement would have been taking Marrakech, which had Temple of Artemis. If I route my troops differently and go for that before Stockholm, I may have been able to get to 8 cities, rather than having to abandon my push for Marrakech around t120.
I wanted to save Oracle for Renaissance, but had to bail and complete it a few turns before. A bit better play would give a big improvement there. Other big mistake was not building a Worker early enough -- I got plenty of steals, but I wasn't prepared for how many tiles Spain gets working early.
Timings were Education t79, Scientific Theory t122 (one bulb), Plastics t157 (two bulbs, detoured Fertilizer first). That stretch between Schools and Labs is where I fell behind Vadalaz's game.
Seven cities with 2 Observatories. (I had an 8th city at endgame, but that was captured purely for gold once the tech penalty didn't matter.) Wasn't quite enough beakers, and my bulbs were just barely too small to pick up second-to-last tier techs in one go. So I had to sit and wait as techs completed one turn at a time -- this probably could have been mitigated if I had anticipated and started bulbing a bit earlier. Improvement there might have gotten it down to t187.
A bigger area of possible improvement would have been taking Marrakech, which had Temple of Artemis. If I route my troops differently and go for that before Stockholm, I may have been able to get to 8 cities, rather than having to abandon my push for Marrakech around t120.
I wanted to save Oracle for Renaissance, but had to bail and complete it a few turns before. A bit better play would give a big improvement there. Other big mistake was not building a Worker early enough -- I got plenty of steals, but I wasn't prepared for how many tiles Spain gets working early.
Timings were Education t79, Scientific Theory t122 (one bulb), Plastics t157 (two bulbs, detoured Fertilizer first). That stretch between Schools and Labs is where I fell behind Vadalaz's game.
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Nicely done!
Spain is kind of tricky to play since you never really get starts like that with any other civ. It's hard to tell what the best build order is, how many workers you need and how to spend the gold optimally, e.g. in my game I obviously needed an extra scout to find GBR earlier.
Schools - Labs - Victory is an interesting jump, there seem to be many small things in it that affect the finish time. Here are two games in which the ST -> Victory jump is made in 39 and 40 turns... I'm not sure how this player does it, in my best games it takes me 50-60 turns to do the same. He goes Indu first and picks Order every time, maybe that's the answer? I also just noticed he has a new write-up for a T185 Babylon game where he goes from Plastics to victory in just 20 turns (!) with Order.
This made me realize that I should've been taking some of the AIs' cities in peace deals and selling them to the richer ones for better endgame gold. I believe you completely avoid the science penalty if you puppet the city and sell it on the same turn. Would've gotten a lot more gold from Attila and Pedro, missed out on 200+ gpt there I think...
Spain is kind of tricky to play since you never really get starts like that with any other civ. It's hard to tell what the best build order is, how many workers you need and how to spend the gold optimally, e.g. in my game I obviously needed an extra scout to find GBR earlier.
Schools - Labs - Victory is an interesting jump, there seem to be many small things in it that affect the finish time. Here are two games in which the ST -> Victory jump is made in 39 and 40 turns... I'm not sure how this player does it, in my best games it takes me 50-60 turns to do the same. He goes Indu first and picks Order every time, maybe that's the answer? I also just noticed he has a new write-up for a T185 Babylon game where he goes from Plastics to victory in just 20 turns (!) with Order.
Nicely done Vadalaz and manpanzee! Inspires me to carry on in my search for sub 200 SV HOF style; most frustrating, 3x 205 on Spain Pangaea (found sinai first 3x lol), similar on Inca GP (2x 207 finish).
Think i'll go with inland sea as per links above, first few rolls show much good land (no ice/tundra, many rivers, coast) and see if i can break my duck.
Think i'll go with inland sea as per links above, first few rolls show much good land (no ice/tundra, many rivers, coast) and see if i can break my duck.
Acken
Deity
Try smaller maps for Spain. Lakes or the good old great plains. Restart if you don't get 2 free settlers.
There won't be any of those russian roulette civ so far but the game seems to include a lot of randomness elsewhere.
Spain on proper map is really God-tier civilization.
If more people play and have more patience to roll good map Spain would dominate all HOF tables.
Unfortunately, or fortunately it won't be a case in Civ6
There won't be any of those russian roulette civ so far but the game seems to include a lot of randomness elsewhere.
I'm very interested in the late NC strategy in the Babylon t185 game.
I decided to play vadalaz's map with a wider liberty strategy. I went 7 or 8 (I can't remember) city NC, finished NC t70, education t77 thanks to great library. Building the NC early didn't have very much impact. It gave me like 18 science and sped up education by 1 turn, not worth screwing over growth in 7/8 cities for libraries and sinking 15 turns worth of production into it. I built universities pretty early on in my cities, but they weren't very useful since my growth wasn't as good as it could have been and I was struggling with happiness. I ended up scrapping the game because I was unsatisfied with growth. I think if I delayed my NC I'd be able to have cities able to work the universities and still have good growth while not affecting education and ST timings by a significant period of time.
By the way, I finished the 5c tradition playthrough on vadalaz's map on t182. I reached labs on t151 (bought all 5) no bulbs and had barely enough science from great scientists and research agreements to get every necessary tech. Not being able to faith buy 3 GS and having only 2/5 observatories hurt.
I decided to play vadalaz's map with a wider liberty strategy. I went 7 or 8 (I can't remember) city NC, finished NC t70, education t77 thanks to great library. Building the NC early didn't have very much impact. It gave me like 18 science and sped up education by 1 turn, not worth screwing over growth in 7/8 cities for libraries and sinking 15 turns worth of production into it. I built universities pretty early on in my cities, but they weren't very useful since my growth wasn't as good as it could have been and I was struggling with happiness. I ended up scrapping the game because I was unsatisfied with growth. I think if I delayed my NC I'd be able to have cities able to work the universities and still have good growth while not affecting education and ST timings by a significant period of time.
By the way, I finished the 5c tradition playthrough on vadalaz's map on t182. I reached labs on t151 (bought all 5) no bulbs and had barely enough science from great scientists and research agreements to get every necessary tech. Not being able to faith buy 3 GS and having only 2/5 observatories hurt.
Spoiler :
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
Congratulations on this unbelievable finishing time. Even though you it wasn't optimal it must've been far more optimal than all of my attempts so far
I am so glad to hear this! The strategy is specifically designed for really wide empires like yours, seeing as the taller your cities are the more you benefit from rushbuying your PS as fast as possible, while the bigger your empires are you benefit more from infrastructure boni that let you build up cities (that you acquired later) as fast as possible, such as early factories or the early Ideo boni.
I think wide Tradition in general is a fantastic playstyle. I often have trouble with centralized hammers for Order victory if I am not playing extremely tall there I appreciate Freedom's part-buying more. Also the amount of gold 10+ cities can produce is just absurd.
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
Initially I used fast Indu to get Order Factories tenet with a GW as soon as I popped Ideology, but lately I have been using it together with Freedom, too.
The biggest benefit is, in my opinion, the following: Getting to rushbuy a few Factories very early will help so incredibly much in developing those cities that are behind. Vadalaz had a 12 city empire, you can imagine his 10th, 11th, 12th city slacked behind a lot compared to his cap, first and second expo, no? Having cities slack behind is always terrible, but especially if you take National Wonders into calculation. Wide empires already suffer from the science penalty for cities, so you want to get your cities as good as possible as fast as possible.
It has the same mentality as Acken's strategy of workshops before University: If you go wide, your cities will not be as tall, so early Universities don't have as much of a benefit as they do with wide Tradition empires, but Workshops synergize very well with Liberty's production boni.
Another thing to keep in mind: If you want your later cities to produce at least one GS you need to start working on it really early. You never want to sacrifice growth in your weaker cities, so often you will end up sacrificing hammers. Early workshops/factories make up for this sacrifice.
Early Freedom really does not sound too appealing, but getting the growth from specialists and the +25% GP generation 10 to even 15 turns earlier can make a difference of maybe one additional GS and one or two pop in every city in the lategame, which makes endgame bulbs even more potent.
Hope this cleared it up to a degree. There are things I am forgetting about for sure, maybe I'll add those later.
I only had 8 cities here, 5 self-founded and 3 captured capitals, so no cities were really that far behind in production. I used hammer and food trade routes to get them up to speed, and I only bought factories in my two of my best expos. I was thinking about buying them in the laggard cities, but I decided against it. I wanted to have 3 cities capable of building wonders quickly, as I still needed Globe Theatre, Sistine (got beaten to it), Big Ben, PT, Oxford, potentially SoL and Hubble (ended up engineering both) and I was considering Sydney Opera as well.
Assuming you buy the labs, there aren't that many buildings you really need after public schools - just banks and stock exchanges for a Freedom game. The production from factories seems overkill to me, which is why I hardly ever build them. I think merchant specialists and the gold % modifiers are more valuable in the late game than production, with the exception of cities that need to build wonders/Apollo since you can't buy those (or SS parts if you go Order).
I think ideally you want Mercantilism, Big Ben, Skyscrapers and a wide empire by the time you hit Sci Theory to really capitalize on early Indu.
Assuming you buy the labs, there aren't that many buildings you really need after public schools - just banks and stock exchanges for a Freedom game. The production from factories seems overkill to me, which is why I hardly ever build them. I think merchant specialists and the gold % modifiers are more valuable in the late game than production, with the exception of cities that need to build wonders/Apollo since you can't buy those (or SS parts if you go Order).
I think ideally you want Mercantilism, Big Ben, Skyscrapers and a wide empire by the time you hit Sci Theory to really capitalize on early Indu.
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
You have to remember though that different players focus their empires differently - In my case I often forego good Hammer or mixed Hammer & Food tiles for plain growth, meaning I am often missing Markets, Temple (for the NW), Bank, Windmill (only for the science form Engi slot) and then all the more or less relevant lategame buildings like Stock Exchange, Hydro Plant, Hospital.
I have seen a lot of people seem to work Mining luxury tiles rather early and still come out with better growth than I do, I pretty much never work those until much later in the game and prefer Pastures plus Food tiles.
Completely forgot about Big Ben, easily one of the biggest advantages. I agree I would always pair this strategy with Mercantilism and wide empires, for smaller Tradition empires I think Patronage can yield good results, but it doesn't work with this strat.
consentient
Domination!
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- Jul 7, 2014
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- 3,361
Thanks for the save, Manpanzee. I'm seeing what results I can get with my favourite playstyle: violent culture. I had a pretty good start considering I'm a bit out of practice. I doubt I can get anywhere near the dazzling results you guys have gotten, but would be more than satisfied just with sub-T200 CV. One question though: is this map 'legal'? i.e. you have submitted it to HoF?
Update: T200 Culture
So not sub-T200 but exactly on the stroke. I could and should have done much better with this great map. I know this has nothing to do with science, and is a replay of Manpanzee's god map, but hey, maybe one of you will give a monkey's...?
Things I did well: Managing to capture all but 1 capital for a beastly crushing of the AI's ability to make culture. William had 9k at the end of the game, and he was the one that I left alone, my best mate the whole game. I hadmore than 20 15 cities so I'm quite happy to have kept the tech high enough to compensate for the per-city drain.
Things I could have done much better: Managing happiness. I wanted to go Autocracy, because Futurism, but I should have pre-built barracks and taken the happiness from them. Happiness probably cost me 20 turns of may even more. Getting to Flight quicker to finish off Attila, who had built enough Wonders that he might have been culture leader otherwise.
Tradition, Aesthetics, Rationalism, Futurism and spares in Patronage
Update: T200 Culture
So not sub-T200 but exactly on the stroke. I could and should have done much better with this great map. I know this has nothing to do with science, and is a replay of Manpanzee's god map, but hey, maybe one of you will give a monkey's...?
Things I did well: Managing to capture all but 1 capital for a beastly crushing of the AI's ability to make culture. William had 9k at the end of the game, and he was the one that I left alone, my best mate the whole game. I had
Things I could have done much better: Managing happiness. I wanted to go Autocracy, because Futurism, but I should have pre-built barracks and taken the happiness from them. Happiness probably cost me 20 turns of may even more. Getting to Flight quicker to finish off Attila, who had built enough Wonders that he might have been culture leader otherwise.
Tradition, Aesthetics, Rationalism, Futurism and spares in Patronage
consentient
Domination!
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2014
- Messages
- 3,361
FROM MEMORY:-
-Early DoW Morocco for worker/settler steals
-Early DoW India for 1 worker steal
-Peace with India 2nd time of offering. Broken game mechanics, the sap offers DoF on his next turn.
-DoF with William, possibly even before peace with India, can't remember.
-DoF with Byzantium
-DoF with Brazil
-Denounced by Attila (prob. heavily driven by CS competition and me not looking the other way, and cuz he's a ****)
-After taking Marrakech, I paid Theo to backstab everyone, then took 2 cities from her, leaving her with one she forward settled towards William. Waited til DoF ended, then Denounced, then waited a few turns and DoW'ed, once troops were in position (Kili assisted!)
-I also simultaneously sent an army against Venice with William and Pedro as co-belligerents
-Paid Pedro to DoW India and William, then gave him the same treatment
-When I conquered Venice, they had bought the CS NW (Vilnius?), which Pedro took, and which I left him with after keeping Sao Paulo and Rio and razing Salvador.
-Then it was Gandhi's turn. No bribes, but I guess William just didn't like him
-Attila was bribed to DoW everyone and was roundly hated. I took his capital very close to winning.
Also, I gave William stuff, nominated him for WC leader (cuz he had more allies, and would have been anyway, so it's the only good thing to do), proposed stuff he liked, voted for his stuff, and he never got to an ideology so no differences.
So, pretty standard diplo. Sometimes they play ball and take the bribes, and sometimes they don't, and you end up getting hated more.
-Early DoW Morocco for worker/settler steals
-Early DoW India for 1 worker steal
-Peace with India 2nd time of offering. Broken game mechanics, the sap offers DoF on his next turn.
-DoF with William, possibly even before peace with India, can't remember.
-DoF with Byzantium
-DoF with Brazil
-Denounced by Attila (prob. heavily driven by CS competition and me not looking the other way, and cuz he's a ****)
-After taking Marrakech, I paid Theo to backstab everyone, then took 2 cities from her, leaving her with one she forward settled towards William. Waited til DoF ended, then Denounced, then waited a few turns and DoW'ed, once troops were in position (Kili assisted!)
-I also simultaneously sent an army against Venice with William and Pedro as co-belligerents
-Paid Pedro to DoW India and William, then gave him the same treatment
-When I conquered Venice, they had bought the CS NW (Vilnius?), which Pedro took, and which I left him with after keeping Sao Paulo and Rio and razing Salvador.
-Then it was Gandhi's turn. No bribes, but I guess William just didn't like him
-Attila was bribed to DoW everyone and was roundly hated. I took his capital very close to winning.
Also, I gave William stuff, nominated him for WC leader (cuz he had more allies, and would have been anyway, so it's the only good thing to do), proposed stuff he liked, voted for his stuff, and he never got to an ideology so no differences.
So, pretty standard diplo. Sometimes they play ball and take the bribes, and sometimes they don't, and you end up getting hated more.
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