Fixing Tradition and Rationalism Thread

[sendos]

This thread is a sequel thread to my "improve weak SP tree" thread, focusing on fixing rationalism and tradition to promote balance. Here are my thoughts for nerfing tradition and rationalism:


Tradition

The tradition tree literally has created a tradition or blueprint for near guaranteed success, both in SP and in MP. Combined with the science penalty, it is a very attractive tree that has replaced liberty in grandeur, as liberty used to be the best tree in G&K. Personally, I think the only policies that need to be nerfed are monarchy, oligarchy and the finisher.

Oligarchy: +50% city bombard strength when there is a garrison in the city. [Removed the no maintance for garrisoned units]

Monarchy: -1 unhappiness and +1 for every 4 citizens in the capitol.

Finisher: Free aqueducts in first 4 cities. [Removed the 15% food bonus for the first 4 cities.]


Rationalism:

Since science is just about everything in this game, this has became a must-have SP tree. The only SP policies that I think are ok are humanism and scientific revolution. Here are my thoughts to nerfing the policy tree:

Opener: +5% science when empire is happy.

Secularism: +1 science from specialists.

Free thought: +2 science from trading posts. +2 culture from universities, libraries and public schools. [Removed the 17% bonus given to universities.]

Finisher: One time tech boost, like a free RA boost [not free tech]. GS bulbing is 25% more effective.

 

[JohnMK]

Too extreme. Nerf the nerfs by half and I'd support you, eg Monarchy every three citizens, etc.

 

[GoStu]

I think with the science focus this game has, Rationalism needs to be less about getting more science and more about happiness, culture, gold, etc from science. Keeping the opener could be fine, but after a certain increased science % it becomes impossible to keep up with someone who has the full Rationalism tree.

As to Tradition vs. Other openers, I don't think Tradition needs the extensive weakening you're proposing. I think Oligarchy should go or be severely weakened so that 4-city or less empires are in more danger of getting a good hard pillaging by an honor player. Liberty needs to get its benefits a little earlier: city connection happiness and flat -x% unhappiness don't pay off over Tradition until.much later, and Honor needs a couple little buffs to make conquering cities more profitable. All it gets you now is an unhappy city with most of its buildings gone that needs an expensive courthouse to keep order.

Piety isn't an opener to me. I don't commit social policies to it unless I already founded and got good beliefs. Someone might beat me to a nicer Reformation, but i know they suffered to get it. Piety's really good if you're going wide and religious; I favor a building (pagodas are ideal) and some bonus to shrine/temple.

 

[GhostSalsa]

Rationalism already pretty nerfed in that the third and forth science-generating policies are both at the bottom. The only way in which it is still over-powering is that the opener and second are right at the top, and the second, Secularism, is huge.

Another approach for tweaking Secularism would be move +2 science for art guild specialists to Aesthetics, which finally gives that tree a little science (I think Exploration should, in the grand scheme, get a science bonus somewhere too). Since guilds are always going to be in the capital, that's a switch of 12 beakers out of the capital for Rationalism tree which is almost all the nerf you would really want right now. It fits the World Congress art-vs-science theme and also makes working merchant slots seem more attractive for a science-focused empire.

I really agree with taking away Oligarchy. Tradition already provides so many indirect benefits to warfare, it doesn't need a city invincibility policy.

 

[Rooftrellen]

Removing the no maintenance for garrisoned units from Oligarchy would really hurt wide empires even more. Tradition may be too good, but cutting off the benefits it gives to going wide doesn't make Tradition less powerful. It makes wide empires even less viable.

Monarchy would be ok like that. I might prefer that the happiness benefits say the same as now, with the gold moving to +1 for every 4, but as someone mentioned in another thread, the gold bonus seems to be a dinosaur from when wide empires would be working more gold producing tiles. Gold could just be removed from the SP and be done with it.

Legalism could use a change more than the finisher, but, again, it's a bit touchy. Removing the free culture buildings would, again, hurt wide empires more than tall.

Overall, Tradition's problem is that it's best for wide and tall, and any changes that would hurt wide civs would have to be offset with benefits somewhere else.


For Rationalism, it gives too much science, sure, but I'd rather see it changed to, as GoStu suggested, benefits from science, rather than benefits to science. Changing the tree to make Secularism and Free Thought require the 3 other SP's would encourage me to look at it differently, at least. Normally, I consider those two the only NEEDED parts of Rationalism, unless I'm going to space.

Even if I had to get the other 3 SP's in the tree before either of those two, I'd still probably go after them, but given the "junk" I'd have to go though to get to them, I may put off the tree for a bit longer.

Another option for balance would be to make another tree available, Rationalism working as it does (extra science from science buildings) and another tree that gives science based on something else. Culture comes to mind with museums and archaeology, but religion, trade, or economy are all options, alone or in combination.

Rationalism is alone in it's era. It seems it is meant to be a great tree for everyone. Offering an equally great tree to compete with it would automatically "fix" it, but I don't know that Rationalism is doing anything other than what it is supposed to do, be taken by everyone, every time.

 

[civ54lyfe]

Rat has already been nerfed + people should realize that Rat exists in SP for the human to try to mitigate the Science bonus of the AI.

 

[whyidie]

I'd rather see boosts to other trees vs nerfing Tradition. Game has slowed down enough as it is if you're not playing optimally.

Liberty is a finicky beast, while its rewarding when it goes well, there are so many more things that need to go right that it becomes a chore 60% of the time. Tradition on the hand seems to be "easy" enough to allow for variety below Immortal.

No nerf, give slight boost to Liberty, and a larger one to Honor.

 

[joshua43214]

I think Tradition is fine, it is Liberty and Honor that need help. Just putting the happiness for road connections above the free settler would make a big difference to Liberty, and the culture/happiness from garrisons in Honor is moronic - why garrison a unit that should be fighting.

Not sure I support any further nerf to Rationalism - the problem here is with the game in general, no the policy tree. For instance there is no faith based victory condition.

 

[joncnunn]

Tradition:

Obligatory: The bombard ability doesn't really fit in to tradition but the free garrison sort of does so I'd lose the bombard bonus instead of the maintenance free units.

Monarchy: If you mean (-1 happiness & +1 gold) for every four citizens in the capital, it sounds fine. But if you mean -1 happiness (& +1 gold for every four citizens) in the capital; that's too big a happiness nerf.

Finisher cut looks fine.

Basically brings Tradition down to average. Liberty though would then be the strongest tree and would basically need to lose the free great person to bring into balance. (The free great person doesn't really fit well into liberty anyway; a tall empire can also use a great person)

Rationalism: I think those changes would actually bring it down for over powered to merely above average.

 

[Infantry#14]

I think Tradition is fine, it is Liberty and Honor that need help. Just putting the happiness for road connections above the free settler would make a big difference to Liberty, and the culture/happiness from garrisons in Honor is moronic - why garrison a unit that should be fighting.

Not sure I support any further nerf to Rationalism - the problem here is with the game in general, no the policy tree. For instance there is no faith based victory condition.

I think a boost to liberty is return the free settler at the top of the branch.

 

[sendos]

Tradition:

Monarchy: If you mean (-1 happiness & +1 gold) for every four citizens in the capital, it sounds fine. But if you mean -1 happiness (& +1 gold for every four citizens) in the capital; that's too big a happiness nerf.

To clarify and be less parsimonious, my nerf for monarchy is -1 unhappiness per 4 citizens in capitol and +1 gold per 4 citizens in capitol.

Going to make a few changes to rationalism because the argument that rationalism should enable science to confer benefits to other things like culture has some weight over me.

 

[maneckezaog]

it becomes impossible to keep up with someone who has the full Rationalism tree.

 

[Doktor Vic Tim]

Isn't Rationalism almost the only thing that allows you to catch up to a Deity/Immortal AI?

 

[reddishrecue]

Piety and honor could use boosts to nerf the other social policies.
Piety

Organized Religion : +1 faith from Shrines and Temples. +1 faith from both a shrine and temple in a city.

Honor

Military Caste: Each city garrison increases local city happiness by 1 and culture by 2. Garrison units cost no maintenance.

 

[Barghaest]

Maybe it's because I'm not a diety/immortal player, but I seldom (if ever) take Rationalism... usually need gold or happiness more than science by that point and I've gone either Commerce or Exploration and then hop straight into Ideologies (even pre-BNW I seldom used Rationalism unless the theme fit the empire I was playing... I tend to pick SP based on how I view the Civ, so when I played Japan, I went Rationalism because of their technology boom in RL - I'll probably do the same when I play Korea).