I LOVE the New Warmonger System! (Tips for BNW)

[neilkaz]

I've got a few questions from a game I have going. I stepped down from Immortal to Emperor for a fun game trying Shoshone and culture farming raging barbs using honor and my scout archers obtained from ruins. The Pangea map was more cramped than usual and Ramses first city was jammed right up next to Moson Kahni's borders.

Well I still have to play the game, and so it was time to CB rush Ramses and I DOW'd and stole 2 workers on that turn. I then killed off his units and was ready to take that city and he offered me peace with 3 gpt and two lux. Since I could get those lux anyhow by capturing the city and wanted more for peace, I asked for me and he refused so war continued.

I believe that I am allowed one "free" DOW before warmonger hate?

If I park a bunch of troops by his borders and he asks me if I am planning to DOW and I do DOW, does that count as my "free" DOW?

Did I increase warmonger hate by refusing his initial peace offering?

I puppeted that city due to the lux. Would I have increased warmonger hate if I'd razed it?

I now noticed warmonger hate from everyone!

Next I moved in on Thebes and killed a few new units and this time he offered me a real deal giving me his only non-capitol city. I accepted as I could barely handle the happiness. Thebes had no wonders to take anyhow.

74 turns later, I still have warmonger hate from 4 of the 7 civs!! My only DOF has been from Maria Theresa (likely bcuz she loves my Buffalo Brisket and is a nearly constant dinner companion).

How long will this hatred last?

Would I have had less hatred if I hadn't accepted a city in the peace deal?

Would I have had more hatred had I taken Thebes and then stopped, leaving one remaining Egyptian city?

Would I have had more hatred had I simply continued and wiped Egypt off the face of the earth?

Thx for your replies here, as I am getting a bit bored playing BNW so passively.

.. neilkaz ..

 

[bison21]

You don't get a "free" Dow. Wth? I am playing as Rome (emperor, pangea, standard) and my first DOW got me warmonger penalty with everyone who dislikes it. Only Hiawatha wasn't bothered.

 

[Mahasona]

I got a free Dow against the Songhai today.

They'd already attacked a couple of city states, declared against Portugal, then finally wiped out the French. I took out their capital after I got fed up with them spamming their religion at me. Maybe everyone hated them enough to let it pass...

 

[fuzzatron717]

I miss the way the warmonger penalty worked in G&K because they actually went away after a while and encouraged a tad more war which playing peaceful fun trying to avoid war was a challenge but now it ain't fun anymore. Plus does anyone know how to conquer an entire civ without the warmonger penalty effecting me to much cause I am stuck in mountains, tundra, and snow and my neighbour Carthage has plains and grassland plus forests but in BNW warmonger penalty lasts all game now which is crap especially when world congress kicks in.

 

[Halcyan2]

I miss the way the warmonger penalty worked in G&K because they actually went away after a while and encouraged a tad more war which playing peaceful fun trying to avoid war was a challenge but now it ain't fun anymore. Plus does anyone know how to conquer an entire civ without the warmonger penalty effecting me to much cause I am stuck in mountains, tundra, and snow and my neighbour Carthage has plains and grassland plus forests but in BNW warmonger penalty lasts all game now which is crap especially when world congress kicks in.

It doesn't last all game. You can remove it by liberating cities.

Try to bribe Carthage to attack other civs and take their cities. After that, DoW Carthage, take the cities you want and liberate a few.

 

[isau]

I have been playing the game with diplomatic values visible, and watching the actual values has convinced me that the system is somewhat schizo. War monger hate seems to encompass a huuuuge range of values. In my game I saw it range from -10 (the edge of dark red text) to over -100 or higher. It does actually decrease occasionally but not very quickly.

The AI also seems to completely forget or suddenly remember war monger hate. I had the Maya go from 0 to -38 war monger hate on a turn with no DoW or city captures. I had already taken several other cities from Carthage but I had diplomatically isolated Dido and liberated England so no one cared. But suddenly 1000 years later, my modifier with the Maya tanked and he wouldn't renew our DoF, dropping from the highest point of friendly down to Guarded. Then sometime later he forgot about it again and rejoined me in a DoF. He hated Carthage at the time of the original war but patched things up with her later. Is that why? Who can say?

Frankly, taking cities by convincing the AI to give them to you feels like gaming the system to me. It seems more like an unintended consequence of an overly punishing war system than a desirable mechanic. I appreciate the tips in the guide but the fact that the desirable strategy is to declare pointless wars where you don't actually engage the enemy until they just hand you their cities is proof positive of a much needed adjustment in the modifiers. If Firaxis reviews the diplo penalties for forced capture and finds them still intentional, they should also apply to gifted cities to close this loophole.

 

[fuzzatron717]

Perhaps the penalty doesn't last but it seems like it does when everyone stays guarded or hostile almost the entire game.

 

[CountAccountant]

The AI also seems to completely forget or suddenly remember war monger hate. I had the Maya go from 0 to -38 war monger hate on a turn with no DoW or city captures.

This is very interesting. I had noticed that the warmongering penalty appears and disappears with different civilizations, but I had assumed that the other civs were just hiding the warmonger red text from me to be sneaky. I never imagined that the actual penalty could be appearing and disappearing.

If this is a bug, I wonder if the latest patch did anything to fix it.

 

[isau]

This is very interesting. I had noticed that the warmongering penalty appears and disappears with different civilizations, but I had assumed that the other civs were just hiding the warmonger red text from me to be sneaky. I never imagined that the actual penalty could be appearing and disappearing.

If this is a bug, I wonder if the latest patch did anything to fix it.

FWIW it also happens with the "You denounced our friend" modifier. Which for the record is equal to -15 hate, more than the dark red "war monger" hate. The Maya could have been faking, but making a DoF with me for 1000 years and trading many research agreements seems like a heck of a way to "fake" me out.

Since we're talking numbers, I saw "liberation" as around +35, DoF as around +35, "we traded recently" as around +3 but dropping after a few turns to +2 and then +1. These values can probably change somewhat.

Regardless, the numeric values tell a much more coherent story than the text does. I don't know why Firaxis hid it for Civ 5. You can enable it using a mod from the workshop. I haven't been able to play without it since, the information is too critical and reveals a much different picture than the text alone does.

 

[Theruss]

If you have declared war or conquered a single city. If a Civ just dislikes you and is plotting against you anyway. Of course the Civ is going to call you a warmonger. After all, it's mandatory to label the enemy as EVIL!

 

[bison21]

I got a free Dow against the Songhai today.

They'd already attacked a couple of city states, declared against Portugal, then finally wiped out the French. I took out their capital after I got fed up with them spamming their religion at me. Maybe everyone hated them enough to let it pass...

That's not a "free Dow" by my definition. Songhai is disliked and have heavy warmonger bonuses, and you may even share a common enemy with others because of that, they probably denounced him. You just were smart enough to dow the baddie.

Free Dow sounds to me like "regardless of the circumstances, you have one penalty-free dow per game"