If you could make a timeline of "most powerful european country/ies"

[Adler17]

The Prussians were (resp. are) Germans! They were never Polish. At least a small history of Prussia:
The Prussians, a Baltic people, resisted to accept christianity. And they resisted to get under Polish reign. So Conrad of Masowien asked the Teutonic Order to solve that problem. Therefore they should get the lands of the Prussians. When they did that, they indeed made their state there. They could later aquire lands at the Baltic coast up to Kurland. In that time Poland and Lithunia united, leading to a series of wars with the Teutonic Order. At last, they had to accept the loss of West Prussia and most other territories, except (mostly) that, what was later known as East Prussia. At this moment the Teutonic Order was dying out. The last leader, Albrecht von Brandenburg- Ansbach, asked Luther for help and he gave the advice to make a duchy out of the Orderstate. Albrecht introduced the Reformation and transformed the Duchy- with the willing of his feudal lord Sigismund I. of Poland. In 1618 Albrecht's last heir died and so the duchy came to his relatives in Berlin. So Prussia was now belonging to the Elector of Brandenburg. It was a difficult time with the Plague and the 30 Years war, but in 1640 the Grand Elector was ruling. He managed it to get rid about the feudal lordship of the Polish king for East Prussia. From this day, Brandenburg- Prussia became more and more known as Prussia. His son became the first king in Prussia. Frederic the Great, after aquiring West Prussia finally by the Polish, became the first king of Prussia as now all of the areas were reunited.
The population of these areas was, until 1945, mainly German, even in Western Prussia. So they never were Polish!

Adler

 

[Archduke Otto]

@Tank Guy3: Sure, the Polish are a noble and heroic people with a great history of their own. However, Prussia was a German state; you have to consider that until 1945, Silesia, Pomerania, Eastern Prussia, Western Prussia and in part also the province of Posen (Poznan) were predominantly inhabited by Germans, even in times pre 1772 (when Posen and Western Prussia were Polish). Since in 1814/15 the area of Warsaw came under Russian control, what remained Prussian, was almost entirely German-speaking, save for a Polish minority in the provinces of Western Prussia and Posen.

For the territorial extent of the German language in about 1900 see this map:

http://www.jenskleemann.de/wissen/bildung/media/a/a3/deutsche_mundarten.png

Now to all Polish who read this: This is not meant to be revisionistic or anything, just trying to put the facts right.

 

[sydhe]

Of course, that brings up what happened to the Old Prussians. Some were massacred, some were relocated from southern East Prussia to what's now the Kaliningrad Oblast, some were sold into slavery (I think), and some remained in their homeland, and over the centuries their language died out and they became assimilated with the Germans, Poles and Lithuanians.

A lot of the people removed from East Prussia after World War II would have been the descendants of the assimilated Old Prussians.

 

[Evie]

My ranking, from the Renaissance onward, and based on political power ; ignoring the Ottoman Empire for the sake of having something to say for the first few centuries :

1453-1521 - France
1521-1630 (or so) - Spain+Austria (Habsburg Empire)
1648-1713 - France
1713-1791 - England/United Kingdom
1791-1815 - France
1815-1871 - United Kingdom
1871-1918 - Germany
1918-1939 - United Kingdom
1939-1944 - Germany
1944-1990 - USSR
1990-2006 - France & Germany as the European Union.

Poland was, certainly, repeatedly a major power, but never really to the point of claiming number one Europe-wide (Eastern Europe is another story) - their nearly landlocked status (their only access to the sea when they had any being in the Baltic, effectively locked by the Danes, and for a while in the Black Sea, locked by the Ottomans), combined with their remote location mean they had virtually no ability to project power in much of Europe (and mostly everywhere that mattered to actually be become a political major player), and theoretical might that you can't actively use is not power.

 

[Verbose]

1453-1521 - France
1521-1630 (or so) - Spain+Austria (Habsburg Empire)
1648-1713 - France
1713-1791 - England/United Kingdom
1791-1815 - France
1815-1871 - United Kingdom
1871-1918 - Germany
1918-1939 - United Kingdom
1939-1944 - Germany
1944-1990 - USSR
1990-2006 - France & Germany as the European Union.

Looks reasonable to me.

Only the bit...

1918-1939 - United Kingdom
1939-1944 - Germany

...depends if one looks at the relative top European power on a global scale or the top dog in Europe.
In the latter case it might rather be:

1918-1933 - France
1933-1944 - Germany

 

[Evie]

Not sure. UK might have had less "muscle" in Europe directly than France, but all the colonial & commonwealth backing they could bring to bear significantly increased their power on the European theater.

As for Germany, even with Hitler in power it would take time a bit to come back on top. 37 or so, maybe - the Spanish Civil War is a good point.

 

[willemvanoranje]

My ranking, from the Renaissance onward, and based on political power ; ignoring the Ottoman Empire for the sake of having something to say for the first few centuries :

What variables (criteria so to say) did you use to determine political power? It's a pretty tricky concept to measure..

 

[Vietcong]

the ottomans, even tho thear not from europa, thay whear a big bower
and the golden hord?

 

[malborough]

until 150 BC : greece
150 BC - 476 : rome
476 - 700 : byzantine empire
732 - 814: frankish kingdom poitiers victory to the death of carolus magnus
814 - 900 : viking
900 - 1071 : byzantine empire
1071 - 1346 : france
1346 - 1492 : ?
1492 - 1648 : spain
1648 - 1763 : france
1763 - 1793 : united kingdom
1793 - 1815 : france
1815 - 1870 : united kingdom
1870 - 1914 : united kingdom and germany
1918 - 1940 : united kingdom and france
1945 - 1989 : urss
1989 - 2006 : united kingdom, france and germany

 

[Evie]

What variables (criteria so to say) did you use to determine political power? It's a pretty tricky concept to measure..

It really rather depend.

But primarily, it's by surveying diplomatic relations between nations. The formation of leagues against a nation, and who joined them, is generally a good indicator of a major power. The same goes for alliance being formed despite religion (see France joining the protestants side in the 30YW despite being Catholic).

There are exceptions to this : there were no 19th century anti-England leagues, for example. But generally it's pretty obvious anyway.

 

[willemvanoranje]

Allright.

 

[Fox Mccloud]

Would the Ottoman Empire in the 1500s and 1600s count as European?

 

[magritte]

What about the Caliphate of Cordoba in the 10th and early 11th centuries? As far as the Ottomans--well, Istanbul and a good part of their land was in Europe. The vikings consisted of a number of states, so I don't think they can be counted.

Possibly consider England after Henry II marries Eleanor of Aquitaine.

The precise boundaries of Spain's preeminence are tricky, but I'd tend to say they were not the most powerful until the conquest of the Aztecs and Incas (1519) and union with Austria (1516). And Spain was in serious trouble by the end of the 16th century.

It's hard to say who was the most powerful through the 17th century. The Dutch were economically preeminent, but the Ottomans were stronger militarily and probably had more territory even with the Dutch overseas posessions.

 

[malborough]

after the bouvines victory in 1214, without no doubt france is the most powerful country in europe.
we can't consider caliphate of cordoba as an european country, they were moors and the turk aren't european, they are asian conqueror. culturally, too they can't be considered as european people.

 

[willemvanoranje]

It's hard to say who was the most powerful through the 17th century. The Dutch were economically preeminent, but the Ottomans were stronger militarily and probably had more territory even with the Dutch overseas posessions.

Without a doubt. Colonies were usually barely more than a fortress with direct surroundings and a few trade posts. Small towns at best. Don't forget though, that economic power buys military power. Holland had enough money to hire all the mercenaries it wanted.

 

[Evie]

In terms of actual politics, European politics tended to gravitate around Vienna and Madrid (ie, the Habsburgs) in the first half of the 17th century, and around Paris/Versailles after the Thirty Years War ended.

The Ottomans are best considered as an outsider (ie, non-European) factor, much as with Russia before Peter the Great.

 

[Fox Mccloud]

The Ottomans are best considered as an outsider (ie, non-European) factor, much as with Russia before Peter the Great.

Russia is definately European.

 

[Squonk]

@Tank Guy3: Sure, the Polish are a noble and heroic people with a great history of their own. However, Prussia was a German state; you have to consider that until 1945, Silesia, Pomerania, Eastern Prussia, Western Prussia and in part also the province of Posen (Poznan) were predominantly inhabited by Germans, even in times pre 1772 (when Posen and Western Prussia were Polish). Since in 1814/15 the area of Warsaw came under Russian control, what remained Prussian, was almost entirely German-speaking, save for a Polish minority in the provinces of Western Prussia and Posen.

For the territorial extent of the German language in about 1900 see this map:

http://www.jenskleemann.de/wissen/bildung/media/a/a3/deutsche_mundarten.png

Now to all Polish who read this: This is not meant to be revisionistic or anything, just trying to put the facts right.

While the post you're arguing with is wrong - Prussia was a German state,
your post is as ignorant.
"Western Prussia", "Posen region", even Upper Silesia were NEVER majorly german. Your claims are, to say the least, funny, and the map is completely wrong. When on Earth had Germans time to become, as someone would think after seeing this map, a third of population of Congress Kingdom?
I have different pre-ww1 maps, by German schollars, depicting german -speaking territiories in what You call West Prussia and Posen region, Upper Silesia, Warmia and Masuria and none are near the extravagancy of your map.
There are more Germans on it than in official german polls, it seems. More germans in Ukraine, than Poles... No Lithuanians in Klajpeda region...
This map is simply worthless

The Prussians were (resp. are) Germans! They were never Polish. At least a small history of Prussia:
The Prussians, a Baltic people, resisted to accept christianity. And they resisted to get under Polish reign. So Conrad of Masowien asked the Teutonic Order to solve that problem. Therefore they should get the lands of the Prussians. When they did that, they indeed made their state there. They could later aquire lands at the Baltic coast up to Kurland. In that time Poland and Lithunia united, leading to a series of wars with the Teutonic Order. At last, they had to accept the loss of West Prussia and most other territories, except (mostly) that, what was later known as East Prussia. At this moment the Teutonic Order was dying out. The last leader, Albrecht von Brandenburg- Ansbach, asked Luther for help and he gave the advice to make a duchy out of the Orderstate. Albrecht introduced the Reformation and transformed the Duchy- with the willing of his feudal lord Sigismund I. of Poland. In 1618 Albrecht's last heir died and so the duchy came to his relatives in Berlin. So Prussia was now belonging to the Elector of Brandenburg. It was a difficult time with the Plague and the 30 Years war, but in 1640 the Grand Elector was ruling. He managed it to get rid about the feudal lordship of the Polish king for East Prussia. From this day, Brandenburg- Prussia became more and more known as Prussia. His son became the first king in Prussia. Frederic the Great, after aquiring West Prussia finally by the Polish, became the first king of Prussia as now all of the areas were reunited.
The population of these areas was, until 1945, mainly German, even in Western Prussia. So they never were Polish!

Adler

You forgot to mention that southern Prussia (Masuria) was inhabited by Poles since medieval times and polish remained the language of majority of rural population until ww2.
You forgot to mention that Teutonic Knights were supposed to subdue Prussia to Konrad, not to get it on their own.
You forgot to mention that so-called Western Prussia is in fact polish province of (eastern) Pomerania, taken by teutonic knights by deception and force.
majority of population in s-c Western Prussia was always polish and kashubian.
this area was under german administration only since the beginning of XIV century to 1466 (with pauses), and since 1772 to formation of Poland after ww1. Of course, majority of population of Gdansk was German, but it didn't mean it didn't feel loyal to Poland until XIX century

 

[Evie]

Russia is definately European.

Geographically, yes.

But culturally speaking, Russia was, for much of history until the 17th and 18th century, effectively isolated from european politics and affairs. Thus me qualifying them as outsiders until them.

You can't really be the most powerful in Europe if nearly all of Europe just pretends you're not there.

 

[Fox Mccloud]

But politicaly speaking, Russia was, for much of history until the 17th and 18th century, effectively isolated from european politics and affairs. Thus me qualifying them as outsiders until them.

fixed

Since their language, traditions etc. were Slavic, Russia was still European even if they were rarely involved in the politics of Europe.