In-Depth Guide: Mayan/Arabian ICS strategy.

1) Diplomacy:
It seems impossible to win without focusing heavily on diplomacy. One has to anticipate when another player will DoW you (for example, a Atilla runs short of other neighbours and start to look at your land with a grim). Trying to have the other players fight each other (and especially making sure that the runoff civ is at war with a relevant opponent)

War is almost inevitably dictated by proximity. Look for your closest opponent and realize that he, in all likelihood, is going to DOW you pre-turn 100. Beyond that, yes, of course you'll befriend civs who aren't nearby. You'd do this regardless of the strategy that you're pursuing.

Because of that, I am not so much in favor of stealing workers. In ICS, you have to trade around 10-15 luxuries all the time against 240gold. If you have hostile or even war computeurs, you can't sell them and then you cannot buy your settlers.

Steal workers from City States, not computers >.<

I still manage to have only one opponent most of the time. Most of the games I lost where because someone declared war while my troopst where fighing elsewhere -> I think that trying to be friends is key

No, defeating your closest enemy is key. Always attack the computer that is closest to you. It's unlikely that another computer will randomly DOW you as long as you do. Unless you are playing on a small/tiny/duel map you should never be close to more than 1 at a time (especially early on). This is especially true given that computers have a natural tendency to expand towards other players. That is, the next closest player to you is, in all likelihood, going to expand towards someone else (and end up warring with him/her). I have almost never seen the computer expand "defensively" on deity. They will happily ignore big empty spaces in favor of aggressively encroaching on someone else's territory.

If 2 civs do DOW for whatever reason you are probably going to lose. Their unit spam is insane on Deity. While you may be ale to hold off early double-DOWs, mid-game ones should almost always crush you. Even if you do survive that's all that you'll be able to do. It's very taxing to wage wars on 2 fronts after all.

Although, the nice thing about Maya is their ability to grab an early GG for free. I've definitely picked one up early on and used it to slam a citadel near my closest opponent. When he DOW'd me he basically just ran his army in to it until he lost everything. Tricks like that are great for winning early wars with minimal losses/investments.

Also, something that I discovered a bit late is &#8220;si vis pacem, para bellum&#8221;: it is important to show a fat army to your neighbours just to avoid that they DoW you. Then you can choose your opponents. Therefore, continue to build / upgrade your army even if you do not plan to wage war short term.

You will rarely-if-ever outproduce the computers on Deity. A "fat" army should still be relatively small. If you do, it means that you should be looking to wage war in the short-term. There's no real reason to play passively while ICSing after all.

2) Science
I read in your guide to build a library before a monument. Also, often read that Messengers of the God is a must "epsecially with the Mayans". I completely disagree. With mayans, you already have the wonderful pyramid to give you +2science (and the faith to found early). What you need is therefore happiness to be able to continue spamming cities to get those +2 science or ways to have more settlers. Hence, I think that besides desert folklore which is OP, other situational pantheon are better:
- sacred waters (1 happiness near rivers) give you the needed happiness to continue spamming. It continue to scale in the game as if you wage war and puppet and have ca 20-30 cities late in the game, it is likely that you will have 4-8 happiness from that. Especially, if you have rivers, trade routes come late (as you need to have engineering which I think should come after Construction and theology -> late)
- culture stuff (from wine / incense or jungle or gold&#8230;) is useful in your capital. The +4 / +6 culture you get will help you to quickly move on the liberty tree (especially to get the free settler or the +1 happiness from trade routes, both key to city spam). Also, it helps to expand borders on your capital, which is often useful to get luxuries within 3 hex
But obviously, if nothing situational make sense, MotG is very good. I just find that the trade routes arrive a bit late to get the benefit
For the same reasons, early libraries are useless: they will get you 1 science for your other cities, maybe 2, which early is nothing compared to spamming a new city which will build a pyramid

Libraries are needed for the NC. Civ is still a game of science and you'll need more than 2 science per city to maintain a decent tech rate.

Monuments are fine and you'll probably build them but I mean what is it that you hope to accomplish with the culture? How many policies are you unlocking in a 20+ city game when each city is only producing 2 culture? You are finishing tradition and that's basically it. Oh, sure, you'll start on another one, but that's about it.

My opinion is that science is the lifeblood of this game and that you can't effectively abuse culture while ICSing. As such, I typically value beakers over culture.

Sacred Waters is situational but ultimately it isn't very strong. It's usually at best 3 happiness early on which is when you need it the most. Some maps are obviously more generous than others but I mean on average that's what I expect to get from it in the early game. I would much rather focus on creating new cities and selling resources to buy up city states and such than worry about 3 happiness. MoTG may take a bit of time to kick in but it's the best way to maintain a good BpT count. You still have to hit key military techs if you want to win after all. It's not like you're going to win without things like bombers. I see far too many ICS strategies that don't care enough about science.

I build granaries, workshops... And always find an excuse thing to build instead of a good old crossbowman. I should probably just pump out more units to gain wars. Also, I hate loosing units, so I probably do not take enough risk. Maybe if I move my units earlier next to an enemy city, I will loose 2 but will conquer the city earlier and get a nice peace treaty&#8230;

Granaries are fine. You'll often want a chunk of your cities to hit 5 pop eventually (for Universitiy specialist slots). Stuff like Workshops are useless however since each city is building 4-5 buildings tops.
 
Granaries are fine. You'll often want a chunk of your cities to hit 5 pop eventually (for Universitiy specialist slots). Stuff like Workshops are useless however since each city is building 4-5 buildings tops.

Workshops are useful for small cities that will be spammng out military units. Windmill is, however, worthless, since its bonus only applies to buildings.
 
Ah perhaps I should have been more clear. Your small cities can produce military units at a reasonable rate and the extra production from the Workshop isn't usually worth the time and continuous gold cost. You're usually not producing units significantly faster and the gold costs can really add up in the mid game when your standing army is large and your Capitol isn't producing much gold. Eventually you get to spam Trading Posts but that does not happen early on. I basically see the Workshop as something to invest in for the long term and I just don't find that it's worthwhile to pop them up in all of your satellite cities UNLESS you took Guruship for whatever reason. Your time and gold is better spent on other things in my opinion.

I would certainly consider getting it once I start letting my cities grow to 5ish pop but that's because the production cost of units really starts to add up right around then. Still, there's no real pressing need to do so early on. You are much better off (in my opinion) fueling the warmachine and taking out nearby players asap. You want to be the runaway civ every time and seize control of your continent. If it's Pangea then it's obviously slightly more complicated but not that much more. You're mostly looking to spread your religion and use your war gold to pay computers to DOW each other constantly. Eventually you'll hit a wall and will need to get bombers and artillery variants online but that's why we focused on science.

Basically I find that people procrastinate too much when ICSing. It's always "oh just one more building then I'll build units." ICSing is actually a very rough strategy on Deity and if you're not being aggressive then you're probably losing. You can always make the argument "oh but this would be nice too" but at some point you have to stop and say "no, I need to start waging war NOW." If you want to sit back and build every building, why aren't you playing a Tradition start with a tall civ? If it's not science then I really don't care about it personally because I'm not going to do anything with it. I don't need a million production for wonders/spaceship parts that I'll never build. I don't need culture for policies that I'll never get anyways. I don't need Temples and whatnot for Faith that I'll have nothing to do with at some point. I just need the bare bones and then it's all about war (other than science).
 
Thanks for your answer
Hum, stupid question, but... how do you pay the computer to DoW another one ?
90% of the time, when I suggest the computer to DoW another one, he just says "no thanks" (and does not ask for gold). Maybe because he know that my treasure chest is quite empty and therefore does not ask for it? Should I wait to have 500 gold before asking a computer to DoW our common neighbour ?

Re stealing workers, I meant from city states. Even if only steal one from one CS, it seems that the other civs are less friendly

And re-double front, since I play on Pangea, I sometimes have 2 neighbours. I avoid extanding towards the second one when I already have one, but it sometimes happen, and then, I agree, it is impossible to hold 2 fronts.

Re-science, I must admit I do not try to build the NC before late late (due to ICS increasing cost...), so no need for early library. But you are probably right, I should focus more towards science. I find culture always helpful to grap happiness stuff (the +1 from liberty trade routes, the +2 per luxury in commerce...)
 
Thanks for your answer
Hum, stupid question, but... how do you pay the computer to DoW another one ?
90% of the time, when I suggest the computer to DoW another one, he just says "no thanks" (and does not ask for gold). Maybe because he know that my treasure chest is quite empty and therefore does not ask for it? Should I wait to have 500 gold before asking a computer to DoW our common neighbour ?

sometimes you can simply gauge what they want by putting the 30 gold option in the trade and clicking 'what will make this deal work'. if it comes back with 'i see no way to ...' then try a mix of non-gold options. if relations are okay, you can pay maybe 100-200g but in ICS spare luxes are usually available that the AI cant really afford to buy from you. even more so with Arabia when you get bazaars. you can try a mix of gold, gpt, strats/luxes and open borders (if you dont mind them scouting your territory). i'll do this if i have a good standing army for them to see but otherwise i'll rarely put OB in the deal.

ultimately it can take time to see what can make the DoW deal work but usually something is there if the diplo relations are steady and they are at odds with the target. check your global diplo screen to see who is denounced by who to help make the choice easier. it will help gauge how expensive the deal might be.

i learned this thru my own trial and error. there is probably a more steady formula to explain it but ive paid more than i needed several times to get the deal done but they were often worth it.
 
Funny thing, for the first time I was starting to win on deity (I was #1 in points and had roughly the same techs than the #2 and #3) so I should have won the wars eventually. But... When I became first, suddenly everyone started to hate and I was Dowed by 3 players at the same (and their 10 allied CS), which was a bit too much for my army... I guess there is a diplo variable called "hate the guy who is winning" and it did not play in my favor...

How do you handle this ? Should have I anticipated that I was about to become the #1 and spread my army to all my borders to prepare for a full invasion ?
Or on purpose, stay the #2 until I have bombers ?

I try to avoid "loading games", but in this kind of situation, when you are at peace and suddenly you have 30 units marching on various fronts, it is hard to fight if you did not have 2-3 turns to prepare...
 
I started this today with Mayans and found it to be extremely enjoyable. That is what I wanted to see, my cities all over the world. I didn't manage to follow it to the letter at times, but still works quite nicely.
 
I figure this is a good thread for this question, since the ICS guide advises the following:

Follower Beliefs:
Initial belief: Asceticism > Pagodas > Guruship > everything else
Secondary belief: Pagodas (if not taken already) > Mosques > Cathedrals > Monasteries (or Guruship if Pagodas were taken first)

Consistent with the guide's advice, it is my experience that puppets will build shrines fairly early (usually after walls, castles and monuments, but before libraries, etc.), which makes Asceticism (shrines: +1 happiness) a strong follower belief for any game where you anticipate conquering a bunch of puppets.

So, in a recent Maya game (not ICS; 6 founded cities + about 10 puppets by the end), I took Asceticism with the expectation that puppets would build pyramids (the Mayan shrine replacement), but not a single pyramid was built (much less any temples). Pulled a late game save file from another Maya game -- no puppet pyramids and, of course, no temples.

Have others observed the same thing? If so, this makes picking shrine or temple-based follower beliefs much less attractive if (A) you're playing the Mayans and (B) plan on a bunch of puppets.
 
Ah, finally after a LONG game, I managed to win my first Deity on Pangea with the ICS Maya. Happy to have done it, but seriously, one truth missing in this thread is:
It will take you more than 40 hours to complete the strategy (I can already hear the people winning in 20hours typing "no, you can go much faster", but for the average Joe, it takes time...) You are at war from turn 50 to the end, sometimes on several fronts and you cannot afford to loose too much units, so you have to spend hours each turn thinking "hum, if I move this Swordsman here to finish this XBow, how many units are in range of attacking him the next turn, and will it survive"... and it take ages. You also need to often check value trade agreements with other Civs and other early signs of backstabbing otherwise you die.

On the game itself, not much to note, I was lucky to have only two neighbours at the start, one of which was the peaceful Gandhi, so I had only one front (with Darius) at the beginning. When Gandhi backstabbed me, I lost a city (as my troops where on the other side fighting Darius), and I thought "this is over, let's rather try with the Arabians on a desert start". But I made a good peace deal with Darius and managed to bring my army back on time to fight agains the evil Gandhi... who provided me with nice 20+ pop cities while my capital was still at 12...

There was one "bug", that I think helped me:
Attila (who was for some time the #1 civ but luckily was on the other side of the Pangea) fought me a bit. After I captured one of his remote cities, he made a good peace deal. And on the same turn when he capitulated, he was "enthusiastic" (even thoug, let's be frank, we never really got along, and the turn after he turned hostile). So I took the opportunity of "one turn love" to ask him to DoW Washington who was just after him in points, and he did (for a hefty 1k gold and 3-4 luxuries). And then, the game was over: the two most dangerous civs where at each other throat while I was carefully swallowing all the "small" civs. When I reached Washington and Attila, I had over 20 cities and 20 puppets and finally managed to have better units than them.

I took their capital and in the end, only Rome was left to capture. Since Julius had been nice with me, I kept him alive and offered him a seat on my express rocket to Alpha Centauri
 
@Browd: i was always unsure if shrines/temples were even in the puppet build orders. asceticism is good for ICS because I'm settling 15 cities. but i dont consider if if im going 6 or less and a ton of puppets. plus it requires 3 followers and that takes a while with IP, my preferred spread method (but less so w/Texts).

i have done games with mostly puppets that eventually became annexes for better pop/building control. and by pop control i mean keeping them at 5 (3 for food and 2 for unis) just like i would if i settled them, not just the caps that i would grow higher. and it was only happiness that accounted for how many i annexed. but since it wasnt Maya the only buildings they got were library, market, unis, then whatever after that. i dont think ive ever seen a puppet build a shrine but I think it should be something like 2nd or 3rd in the BO.
 
Great guide, thanks. Do you anticipate any problems following it on the current update?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
 
In regards to founding a religion..I was establishing mine and curious about using Holy Warriors as pagodas was taken and I not only got both a very good desert location and desert folklore. Thank you.\

*edit* nevermind, I over looked the comment in the original thread.
 
I am not bring able to sell resources for 240. Even with a DoF they are still only giving 200g. Am I missing something?
 
Hmm... I've only ever played on Standard speed, but assuming that that is what you're playing on, it could be that the civ does not like you. The only time I could not get full price is if they are guarded or they are about to attack you. In both cases, they will give you less the more that they hate you/ will attack you.
 
Hmm... I've only ever played on Standard speed, but assuming that that is what you're playing on, it could be that the civ does not like you. The only time I could not get full price is if they are guarded or they are about to attack you. In both cases, they will give you less the more that they hate you/ will attack you.

I think I do have it set to quick(does this actually matter?) but not a single civ will give me 240. Even with Declaration of Friendship...200 is a good as it gets.
 
I think I do have it set to quick(does this actually matter?) but not a single civ will give me 240. Even with Declaration of Friendship...200 is a good as it gets.
A lux is worth 200 on quick, 240 on standard, 360 on Epic, and 720 on Marathon.
 
A lux is worth 200 on quick, 240 on standard, 360 on Epic, and 720 on Marathon.

Thank you. Also, curious on thoughts on this...I by nature am the type of person to want to build every wonder I can...however, I am playing on diety and know this is not going to happen. So, with that being said, I have an GREAT desert start, I have been able to get Pyramid(wonder) and Oracle in the same game. So if I was to play it again, should I skip the others and get Petra instead?
 
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