Is National College start too powerful?

[chazzycat]

I prefer to grab the land early. The best city sites always seem to get taken by the AI when I go NC start. So my opinion would be no, it's not too powerful.

 

[Drawmeus]

Maybe a bit too powerful, maybe not. I'm honestly unsure.

I don't think it's far off, though. Certainly not bad enough to warrant nerfs at this time. It has an appropriate cost for its benefit - no expansion for that long is a significant cost.

 

[TPQ]

I don't think it is overpowered.

It solves some problems and generates other. Like leaving you vulnerable to early agression and the chance of screwing your diplomacy plans.

I prefer to grab the land early. The best city sites always seem to get taken by the AI when I go NC start. So my opinion would be no, it's not too powerful.

Agree with both of you.

 

[GlobularFoody]

I don't think it's too powerful, just seems to be a favorite start for a lot of people on these forums. I think it's probably the most boring way to start a game, myself. I like to get about 4-5 cities then decide on how to play the rest of the game. I only play on King or Emperor though, the top difficulties where the NC start is probably a good choice annoy the hell out of me. Multiplayer, why not eliminate the helpless guy trying for NC while you can?

 

[JWAT44]

technology is key no matter what kind of victory you are going for because better technology usually means better economy and better military.

 

[chazzycat]

true, but NC first is only one way to go about getting science.

 

[JoeBas]

My usual order is

Scout
Scout
Warrior
[Tradition]
Monument
Library
[liberty]
Archer
[Citizenship - Free Worker]
National College
[Collective Rule - Free settler, settle while building NC, buy library immediately with COH]

Obviously stuff moves up and down based on finding culture, rolling France as my civ, etc.

That said, you can't ALWAYS follow the script. Sometimes close-by neighbors pop up. Ugly ones. Sometimes with only ONE good city site between you and them. Sometimes with less. Sometimes with them backed up on a peninsula, and you at their only outlet.

I don't think something is overpowered unless it's so powerful you HAVE to do it, or lose.

 

[Suntechnique]

Thanks for your opinions!

 

[jbevermore]

I don't think it is overpowered.

It solves some problems and generates other. Like leaving you vulnerable to early agression and the chance of screwing your diplomacy plans.

Funny you should mention that. My last game I played ended by 2000 BC because I was NC rushing and had only built a scout and monument (and cash rushed the library). Lost my starting warrior and liberty settler to an unlucky barb spawn and found myself helpless after that.

It's exactly what it should be, a change for a huge payoff with quite a bit of risk involved. In my case I lost my gamble.

 

[AznWarlord]

I say yes, when it turns Iron Working from an 18 turn investment to a 6 turn investment, something's wrong.

 

[Camikaze]

I wouldn't think it's too overpowered, as evidenced by the fact that it's very often better to choose a different strategic path. It's certainly powerful, but so is a rush, for example. You still have to put a fair bit of production in and forgo early expansion in to gain the benefit.

 

[MkLh]

Besides the problem isn't NC itself but that it doesn't have alternatives. Compared to Civ4, there is a huge difference how much valid opening alternatives there are. In Civ5, there are basically two: NC first or second city first (then NC). Nerfing NC does not fix this problem, it makes it worse. Rather bring more options: make early world wonders stronger (like they are in Civ4), bring back the specialist play in early game (it's now after Education) etc.

 

[Camikaze]

I think the early wonders are fairly powerful, though. I mean, Stonehenge, the Great Library and the Oracle are all quite attractive. But I guess even if you are going cultural, you'd be tempted to go NC before Stonehenge (or pop Stonehenge with a GE and go NC anyway). I'm not sure how much stronger you can make world wonders to provide an alternative path.

 

[CYZ]

NC is good as is I think. Perhaps it's slightly too powerfull.

IMO the early wonders are powerfull alternatives as well. It's especially the national wonders that don't compete. They need to be upgraded.


NC is by far the best National wonder because it's effect is powerfull, it comes early, and science is very important, especially then.

Ironworks comes second, the hammers are nice but the boost is not as powerfull and it also comes later. Unless you're OCCing you probably will have more than one city by now so it takes longer to get the requirement and production cost is also higher.

The National treasury is okay since you will probably build markets anyway (I do) but ten gold isn't huge so doesn't compete.

The National Epic is pretty weak with only 25% boost. Only really worth if when focussing on GP.

The Heroic Epic is certainly powerfull and doesn't come too late. Ofcourse only usefull for millitary strategies whereas NC is good for almost any strategy.

Hermitage comes a bit late, is therefor harder to get. I find I only build it when OCCing or going for a culture victory.

Circus Maximus is awesome for large empires. Ironicly, it's also hardest to get (as any NW) for large empires...

Oxford University. Free tech is always nice. But this is basicly a Great Library and never felt like an authentic national wonder to me. You'll need universities everywhere and it comes late. So still mediocre.

In fact, if we compare National Wonders. NC is by far the best with only Ironworks competing seriously. The rest is either weaker, later or more situational.

Edit: I created a thead to discuss the balance of National Wonders compared to the National College here

 

[Drawmeus]

true, but NC first is only one way to go about getting science.

Exactly. It's the best way of generating science early, but rushing the free great person policy and settling a great scientist is adequate for keeping your early game science up if you're doing something else, or focusing on expansion and ultimately teching via RAs or city-states + patronage both work well enough as well.

It's the best science start but there are plenty of times when it's worthwhile to sacrifice some early tech for other early benefits, which is why I think the start is acceptable.

 

[MkLh]

I think the early wonders are fairly powerful, though. I mean, Stonehenge, the Great Library and the Oracle are all quite attractive. But I guess even if you are going cultural, you'd be tempted to go NC before Stonehenge (or pop Stonehenge with a GE and go NC anyway). I'm not sure how much stronger you can make world wonders to provide an alternative path.

The Great Library would be strong, but it's far too expensive. It costs more than twice as much as NC. The best tech you can realistically get from it, is probably Civil Service (~500 beakers). NC gives you ~15 beakers per turn, so it needs something like 35 turns to overcome TGL effect. That doesn't justify the price of TGL (and a big risk to lose it). Stonehenge is quite dubious wonder. It's strong if you want early policies, but after they removed policy saving by default, that comes at a price of later policies, especially in Medieval Patronage tree. In culture vise it may be a stronger move to get Patronage tree opened ASAP and buy cultural CSs than to build Stonehenge.

The Oracle comes later and doesn't really compete with NC.

 

[Randall Turner]

I don't know, Stonehenge is a gift that keeps on giving. You're almost certain to eventually build your Hermitage there (and Broadcast Tower, and take Constitution for the +100% Wonder mod, etc.) so its base culture points end up being worth around 35 per turn or so late-game.

I always maximize policies even when trying to "win" via domination or science. (Never allow diplo wins.) Moar toys.

I find there's a Dromedary-like policy acquisition curve, ie, start out getting them quickly, then turns-per-policy goes up to 30 or so, then goes back down to 15 or so around the time you get Free Speech and the broadcast towers.

(Turns in Marathon time scale.)

I'm currently on about turn 1000, and getting policies at about one every 20 turns. That's not a single-city setup, that's with a very healthy seven core cities. (I do have a Landmark or six floating around.)

 

[Camikaze]

I'm not sure I see how building Stonehenge stops you from opening up the Patronage tree earlier. You do get increasing policy costs, but that's only because you get more policies. You'd only get to Patronage 'earlier' in the sense of as your 4th policy instead of your 6th or something (I don't know if those numbers are accurate), not earlier in terms of turns. And then you can still derive the cultural CS benefit.

 

[Agent Cooper]

In Thal's Balance mod, the National College is moved from Writing to Philosophy, so it's a bit more tricky to get it built early, or you have to play as Babylon and waste the free GS from Writing on Philosophy as soon as Writing is researched.

Otherwise I agree that it's not overpowered. It's all about trade offs in the early game. You get the NC but lose early rapid expansion.

The Great Library in Civ V holds no where the same power as it did in Civ 4, so often I only get it via the free GP from going down the Liberty Tree, but that option is pretty much exhausted with Thal's Mod because that Tree (like most of them) has been significantly altered.

 

[Randall Turner]

I'm not sure I see how building Stonehenge stops you from opening up the Patronage tree earlier. You do get increasing policy costs, but that's only because you get more policies. You'd only get to Patronage 'earlier' in the sense of as your 4th policy instead of your 6th or something (I don't know if those numbers are accurate), not earlier in terms of turns. And then you can still derive the cultural CS benefit.

I think that before they buffed up the Tradition/Liberty trees there was more of a tendency to see early policies as "wasted". I do remember wishing I didn't have to take them before I got far enough to open the Patronage tree back when.