Kazakhstan Diplomacy

A rather amusing message from Kaz:


Sure guys, we're really going to dump SANCTA and wait for you and your alliance to finish us off. :rolleyes:

This kind of message really does make me want us to be much stronger and firmer in our diplomacy with Kaz. It rather annoys me that they think we'd be stupid enough to sacrifice our chances in this game by refusing to trade with the one nation friendly to us, when the other three nations are multiple techs ahead of us. What the heck do they take us for?

Our response should not mention tech trades with SANCTA at all.

We also shouldn't mention about Feudalism. Effectively, the deal is OFF.

We shouldn't tell them about our exploration.

No reply.
 
Quite a long time have passed since we received their last message. I suggest sending an answer to them. Even if they've been somewhat rude to us in the past, I think we don't had to be.

I'm still uncertain, if we really want to cancel the Feudalism trade with Kazs. I suspect that diplomatic demerits will last a long time in this kind of games.

Message could include things like this:
* Some politness: e.g. Glad to receive your message...
* Feudalism ready in about 10 turns. We shouldn't mention anything about finalizing the trade or blackmailing them. They'll probably send another message after this one asking it directly, but we can delay our answer again
* They know our and Cavs position so I don't see any harm telling Cavs are S-SW from us. We don't know poistions of other teams

It seems at least DMOC is against responding. Any other opinions?
 
On second thoughts, let's send them an email like that. No need to be rude, let's just respond about exactly what they asked and not go into any further detail. ;)

The only thing is I don't think we should respond at all to is the comment about not trading with SANCTA (it's absolutely none of their business what we choose to do anyway).

Greetings Kaz,

Thanks for your message, and apologies for our late reply.

We've certainly noticed the outbreak of war between SANCTA and Kaz just recently. We know almost nothing of the territory under dispute ourselves, but we will watch from the sidelines with interest as events unfold. We have no desire to get involved in any war ourselves at the present time, but we wish you the best of luck in your own battles. :)

So far we have discovered Cav to our south / south-west, but still don't have much of an idea where any other nations are. We would welcome any new information if you are willing to fill us in. As for Feudalism, I believe we will be completing that in around half a dozen turns. (Our research rate varies, so it's hard to estimate precisely.)

Kind regards,
Lord Parkin of Saturn
Only thing is the that the side-stepping of saying "we'll trade Maths for Feudalism" seems a little obvious. Still, I don't see any other way to word a message to them. (By the way, I'm not in favour of going ahead with the trade - it completely undermines our position and SANCTA's. And "diplomatic demerits" simply don't matter in the present situation, since SANCTA will be our friend to the end and all others will probably be our enemies regardless.)

Thoughts? :)
 
Good message. Concerning Feudalism trade, we've plenty of time to make final desicion.
 
Okay. Anyone else have an objection? If I don't hear anything within 12 more hours, I'll send the message as is.

Kaleb has just requested my MSN, so no doubt he wants to chat soon. I don't have the time right now, but I can't avoid it for long.
 
Okay, cool.

I can't play for a while either, so if Plako or Joshua are around then they can take the turn. If nobody else has a chance within the next 12 hours, I guess I could squeeze some time in to play.
 
Brief PM exchange with Kaleb:

Kaleb said:
main thing I wanted to check with you was when you thought you would be able to respond to our last message? better to hear your thoughts directly as opposed to discovering your intentions via third parties...

Lord Parkin said:
Sorry for the delay... we'll send a message within the next 12 hours, just waiting for the okay from everyone.

Not sure why you mention "third parties", but I hope you're not assuming that any team can speak for another. (We had an issue with Cav trying to speak for you in a chat just recently, and we were rather unimpressed with this disrespect towards both Kaz and Saturn.)
 
I'm also a bit busy. I'll have a small time slot in about ~6 hours, but I had to use mobile internet and it has proven to be quite unreliable. If no one has played the turn at that time, I'll try.
 
Sent message to Kaz.

Greetings Kaz,

Thanks for your message, and apologies for our late reply.

We've certainly noticed the outbreak of war between SANCTA and Kaz just recently. We know almost nothing of the territory under dispute ourselves, but we will watch from the sidelines with interest as events unfold. We have no desire to get involved in any war ourselves at the present time, but we wish you the best of luck in your own battles. :)

So far we have discovered Cav to our south / south-west, but still don't have much of an idea where any other nations are. We would welcome any new information if you are willing to fill us in. As for Feudalism, I believe we will be completing that in around half a dozen turns. (Our research rate varies, so it's hard to estimate precisely.)

Kind regards,
Lord Parkin of Saturn
 
Are we not giving them Feudalism? You seemed to leave that out. :p

Perhaps we could say we are neutral, and simply got give the tech to either until the war ends. I dunno. I suppose SANCTA is expecting it too...
 
I suggest that our next message, following the inevitable questioning, should go something along these lines:

- The deal is postponed, but not necessarily cancelled.
- We cannot with a clear conscience pass a powerful military tech to Kaz when they have so clearly aligned with two other nations and are warring with the only remaining nation besides ourselves. This would irreversibly skew the balance of the game.

We could also mention a lesser issue:

- In the time since the deal for Feudalism was made, Kaz has quite clearly arranged closer technological ties with other nations.
- Instead of the even trade we originally thought we agreed to, Kaz has created a situation where Saturn would effectively be sending Feudalism for free to two other nations besides Kaz.
- This would render Feudalism almost worthless to us as far as trading value goes, which is not the deal we agreed to.

Another potential area for discussion, which I feel has some powerful points, but I'm not sure if Kaz would care:

- Kaz are making a massive mistake in technologically aligning themselves with Cav. Doing this means that Kaz are sacrificing their chance at victory.
- Cav are currently setting themselves up for a runaway victory, and are practically assured of this with the support of Kaz and MS.
- If Kaz does nothing, the likely order of events will be: Cav eliminates Saturn, Kaz/Cav eliminate SANCTA, the third wheel of their alliance (MS) will be eliminated by Kaz/Cav, then Kaz face off against the much stronger Cav and lose.
- What SHOULD happen if Kaz want to balance the game up more and give themselves a shot at winning: everyone allies against Cav before they get too strong, then the game becomes Kaz/MS vs SANCTA/Saturn... a fairly even match, which gives Kaz a decent shot at winning.

(I genuinely believe that the above is true, by the way - the way things are currently going, Cav will win this game. Kaz will not win by helping Cav, but may have a chance if Cav is taken out of the equation.)

Anyway, as always, let me know your thoughts. :)
 
First 2 bullet are good and I would present those. These things have genuinely changed and were unexpexted. However we did at least some level suspect that trading Feudalism without conditions would lead to situation where Kazs are selling it forward. So I wouldn't present lesser issues.

Things concerning Cavs are best suited in informal chat as your own personal opinions. However depending on the message from the Kazs they could be added to "official" response also.
 
New message from Kazs:

Greetings Lord Parkin of Saturn,

We apologize for our delay in responding to your latest message but the war has taken much of our time. We understand your desire to remain at peace with the world. We have the same desire but this i not possible for us right now. SANCTA began the war and are doing their best to bully the great nation of Kazakhstan. We know that the best way to deal with a bully is to stand up to him and that is what we intend to do.

We noticed you recently conducted a few trades with SANCTA. While we do not like to see our enemy benefiting from these trades we consider you to be our friend and we are happy that you have gained. We do ask that in the future you consider trading with us before SANCTA. We would certainly make any such trades worth your while. We hope our past deals with you have shown our trustworthiness. We have placed our trust in you though you should know that SANCTA has tried to undermine this trust. We are including a copy of their declaration of war which also states that your team will not be trading feudalism to us. We do not believe their lies but thought it best to have them in the open. Your note indicated you would have feudalism around turn 102. Is this still an accurate estimate?

SANCTA's last message to us is included in the spoiler.

donsig of Kazakhstan

Spoiler :
SANCTA said:
Namaste Kaz,

At This Point you are hearing from the Shogun, Memphus as our nations have entered into a state of war and our diplomatic offices have been overridden.
So let me explain a little more clearly our thoughts on your past message:
Team Kazakhstan said:
This area has been within the Kazakh sphere of influence since the early part of the game and we consider it our territory. We understand that this revelation is disappointing news to your nation, but it is what is it. This city is strategically important to us as well and our claim predates yours.
No The Oracle Directed our first scout here, as such the territory is ours.
Team Kazakhstan said:
We have stayed in the shadow as events have unfolded. When we revealed ourselves to you we did so deliberately and for a very specific reason. We recognized, just as you wisely have, that there is the potential for a conflict between our two peoples. But this conflict can be avoided.
You were in the shadows because it wasn't your territory, hence why as you approached it from the second time (our third time) we had units there, and many more on the way.
Team Kazakhstan said:
It is flatly unacceptable to our nation that this city ever becomes part of the SANCTA empire. If this were to occur we would consider it an aggressive attack against our nation and would act accordingly. But we also realize that you have invested time and resources and it has to be disappointing that you must now give up your plans for this city.
While you are the technology leader, our MFG is 2 times yours. Our Forges are set up. Our Power is through the roof. We will not give up our plans for the city. But are you willing to give up your chance at winning the game for it?
You see that we are at war, and that you have one less chariot.
What you will not see is that we know you expect to be receiving Feudalism from Saturn. But you won't: Saturn will not be trading Feudalism to you, while we are at war and until you have accepted in writing that Angle and all land north is ours. They will be trading it to us instead.

Team Kazakhstan said:
So in order to prevent conflict we think the only possible solution is to raze the city. We understand that this is a bitter solution, but we hope you are prepared to wipe out this city in order to ensure peace.
No, razing the city will cause conflict. As you can see talking about it already has. So we say again will you withdraw? Or are you prepared for further loses?

Memphus, Shogun, SANCTA
Broken wheels and blood
Foreign territory seen
Avalanche begins
 
Give it a few days, and then respond with our points above. Ideally we should wait until we get Feudalism, but I'm not sure how much longer (in terms of real time) that's going to take.
 
Proposed message to Kaz. We'll need to send something to them soon, so comment quickly! :)

Greetings Kazakhstan,

Unfortunately this year we come to you with some bad news: we have decided not to trade Feudalism to you at the present time. Let us make it clear right at the outset that this does not necessarily mean that we wish to cancel the deal completely - however, we wish to postpone it for the time being. I can assure you that this has not been a light decision, and there has been a great deal of debate amongst our team regarding this matter. Let me take this chance to enlighten you a little on our reasoning.

For some time now, we have been watching with dismay as you have blasted up the tech tree with Cav, leaving our poor nation in the dust. We were even more dismayed recently when it became clear that you had invited the Mad Scientists to join your tech trading group. This in particular made it clear that you were obviously and deliberately trying to exclude Saturn - perhaps because you or Cav had us on your "hit list" of nations to conquer.

Frankly, at this point the game is not even close to balanced, to the point where almost seems a joke. You and your two partners have an insane technological edge on the world, which no-one else can hope to compete with. Additionally, you have made Feudalism next to worthless for us in terms of trading value. MS and Cav have responded to our many trade requests with complete and utter silence; in fact, the only time we heard from Cav in recent times was when they enquired about the Feudalism deal we had with you (no doubt wondering when they could expect it'd be passed on to them as a freebie). In hindsight, the reason is obvious: you were planning to spread it around to your buddies, just like Civil Service and all those other techs have spread like wildfire between you.

In short, we cannot with a clear conscience pass a powerful military tech to you when you have so clearly aligned with two other nations and are warring with the only remaining nation besides ourselves. Simply put, this would irreversibly skew the balance of the game, and make it even more of a joke than it is presently.

Regards,
Lord Parkin of Saturn
I may have been a bit harsh in some places in my message. Let me know what you think. I'll send it in about 24 hours.

The only thing I think it's missing is perhaps some mention of what they could do to make us happier (turn on Cav and make it a fairer game), or circumstances where they could get Feudalism (if they would NOT trade it to either Cav or MS, so that we could also trade with them). Thoughts?

Removed from message:

P.S. We will trade Feudalism with you if you would at least agree not to trade it to Cav or MS, to give the tech at least some trade value for us.

In all honesty, we seriously feel that you have made a mistake by aligning yourselves with Cav - it seems you are setting them up to become a runaway juggernaut in this game. If you were to consider turning on them, we would absolutely support you 100% of the way, not only technologically but militarily. Though we doubt that you will do this, we urge you to think about it. With Cav eliminated, Kaz stands a very decent chance of winning. Allied to Cav, Kaz will probably only ever be second best.
 
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