Optimal Late-game Freedom Culture Victories

[consentient]

I have questions. I've gotten a few decent fast-ish Deity CVs under my belt, but I could still improve, so I want to check optimal theory with the very best players. Please only answer if you've completed many sub-T250 culture victories on Deity.

1. What is the optimal path to the fastest victory? Let's start with this real-life example.

Scenario A = T166. I have Uffizi, Sistine and Oxford. Uffizi and Oxford are full. Furthest techs researched are Radio, Fertiliser, Astronomy. World Fair was delayed by AIs and myself voting against it. I am host of the WC. I have 2 GS waiting around. 6 cities. Full Tradition, Aesthetics 4, Rationalism Opener and Secularism. Usual first two in Freedom. No Hermitage yet, but decent culture ~150 CPT. Massive faith output, decent gold. No massive culture monsters. Most of the world involved in wars and absolutely loving me.

I feel like this game is mine to mess up, but I tend to experiment so much with different paths towards being fully Influential that I really wanna hone this part of my game.

I can't give a save or a screenshot because it would spoil a future communal map, which I'm playing as a tester. Hopefully some of you have some ideas for me

 

[GPuzzle]

Well, a few things that I need to ask:

Which ones do you have in Aesthetics? Just missing Artistic Genius?

Anyway, the key thing here would probably be to rush for Plastics, buy a Great Engineer as soon as you can get Statue of Liberty, keep an Internal Trade Route (or two) to your Capital sending food. Rush for Media Culture. I take it all Wonders are in the same place. If you can get your hands on 2 Great Works of Music before you finish Broadway, go for it - it generates three times as much Tourism as the Eiffel Tower. Get a Broadcast Tower as soon as possible in your Tourism City. Finish Aesthetics afterwards since it's only one Policy, and then finish Rationalism. As for techs after Plastics, you rush for Internet. Telecommunications is key too, since NVC is strong as hell. Getting Radar would also be good if you can get it before Internet, due to Airports. Hotels are your first priority buildings.

As for diplomatic maneuvers:

- Keep the world at war but not with you. That's fairly key. Also take in consideration which cities are being sieged.

- Watch out for when Ideologies start coming up for these guys - then you'll probably be on the bad end of the stick. Keep them in perpetual war and they won't come after you.

- Hold out International Games for as long as you can. You want it to come at the same time as the Internet.

- As soon as you are free from Broadway (which you'll want, actually), go for World's Fair and go all out. The Statue of Liberty can help massively. Steal that Culture boost.

- Try to pass your Religion as the World's Religion. The +50% Raw Tourism bonus directly affects Great Musician tours.

- Speaking of which, as soon as you reach around 20 turns with 3+ competitors, get a few Great Musicians and do some tours - they can save you that much time.

 

[consentient]

Well, a few things that I need to ask:

Which ones do you have in Aesthetics? Just missing Artistic Genius?

Yeah, only the last one is required to complete the tree.

Anyway, the key thing here would probably be to rush for Plastics

I'm always hearing from Acken and others that they don't need Labs for a fast CV. I've even done it myself once or twice, I think. So why Plastics? Or do you mean Replaceable Parts? Since you say...

buy a Great Engineer as soon as you can get Statue of Liberty

Yeah, I usually do that when I have the faith for it.

keep an Internal Trade Route (or two) to your Capital sending food.

I find that at this stage of the game, the caravan makes only the difference between r and 6 turns until next growth. Cargo Ships are a different story, but are a rarity. I don't normally do coastal culture.

Rush for Media Culture.

OK, before Rationalism and Aesthetics?

I take it all Wonders are in the same place.

Yes.

Get a Broadcast Tower as soon as possible in your Tourism City. Finish Aesthetics afterwards since it's only one Policy, and then finish Rationalism.

I can see the pieces of your strategy, but not the overall principle. Could you sum it up in a sentence?

 

[Manpanzee]

It pretty much comes down to International Games timing. Simplest way is to win International Games at the same time as your tourism peaks and drop a couple Musician bombs. You should win pretty much immediately, and each turn of tourism in this window is worth many turns of earlier-game tourism, so you don't actually shave off that much by getting tourism earlier. So the question is "how can I max out my tourism during International Games", and tourism generation before or after that window doesn't matter much.

Winning on the second World Congress is possible but really really hard. I don't know that I've ever done it. Winning on the third Congress is much easier. This would usually give a win in the 230-250 range, which means plenty of time to keep building up.

The value of Research Labs really depends. It's crucial that you get at least Hotels + Airports (and ideally Internet too) by the time International Games happens, so if you need Labs for that then they're a top priority. But frequently you have time to spare and can invest some hammers into spamming Archaeologists or whatnot before Labs. Generally I think it's best to just prioritize Labs the same way you would in a science victory, though. It's safer and I don't think building Labs can hurt you much.

 

[GPuzzle]

I can see the pieces of your strategy, but not the overall principle. Could you sum it up in a sentence?

The main key point in winning a CV is getting the timing right. You need to maximize your Tourism before you get to The Internet - that's why you delay Rationalism for Aesthetics Finisher and Media Culture. Rationalism Finisher can be used to burst Internet - and it should.

With Radio and Replaceable Parts if you go for Plastics you can build Labs while waiting for Refrigeration to finish being researched - Hotels are key. After that, head to The Internet.

You want the Internet to pop at around the same time as International Games ends, so keep that in mind.

The best way to maximize Tourism as well is to have everything in the same place due to National Visitor Centre.

Essentially, you're just making sure that all your bonuses are stacked in one place when you get the 4x Tourism bonus for 20 turns. That moment, more or less, should be when you spam Great Musicians because you're operating at peak Tourism.

It's just "try to get as many bonuses towards Tourism before you reach The Internet and International Games", really. That's the key thing behind the strategy.

 

[consentient]

Thanks guys...I'll let you know how I fare.

 

[ShakaKhan]

There are some other factors that would influence how I'd progress that are not listed in your assessment.

-You mentioned having Radio, but didn't state whether or not you had Eiffel. Which leads to...
- ... what is the current rate of tourism vs. culture for all AIs, and particularly the culture leader. Are they all still "progressing slowly" or are they "progressing" but it's stating >500 turns?
- regarding the culture leader, what is his/her location? How feasible would it be to take the capital? coastal?
-how are you faring in the overall tech race? While it normally doesn't apply to deity games, you can often get the "industrial-modern tourism blitz" (eiffel+Uffizi+aesthetics finisher+oxford), and combine that with an early Igames and faith purchasing 2-3 GMs for a premature victory. In order for this to work (often better to save Igames until it's working with internet), the blitz has to occur before the AI acts on archeology (not just acquiring tech but also has a dozen turns or so to build and excavate sites.) Archeology provides the AI with a massive culture boost - If you can blitz before that, it's like hitting them before they can put their armor on.

 

[consentient]

I ended up with a mediocre finish.

Reasons:

1. I could not win IG. One AI was at war on 3 fronts, but decided to put 2x the hammers I put in. And I put in 1500, which was the absolute maximum I could have. I had 7 cities, all with factories etc, all on full production.

2. My base tourism was only 400-something. But I could only get it that high after building a certain number of things.

3. The archaeology boost happened REALY early in this game, but still I only had 20k culture to overcome. Not much at all. It's all down to timing. I just suck at anything mathematical

So really I think the WC is probably most important in the timing issue. I got the culture policies in plenty of time, and had the scientists to hit Internet nice and early, but not winning the IG meant I had to sit and wait to slowly influence the last civ. I had him at war almost the whole game (mainly so he wouldn't crush me) but he still had too many hammers

 

[stormtrooper412]

Mediocre as in when exactly? Also, how did the last 10-20 turns go, when did you hit Internet and NVC, did you build Louvre? You CAN say that much, right?

I too am not particularly good at CVs, and though I can get it under 300 most of the time, I only have one sub-250

 

[consentient]

I have a few sub-T250, but mostly it's hit and miss. I don't have anywhere near the level of control over them I want. Mediocre as in T260. Internet was T230 or something, but the base tourism wasn't high enough because no airports and other things. And no IG

No Louvre because it's a waste of a policy...or am I wrong?

 

[GPuzzle]

I have a few sub-T250, but mostly it's hit and miss. I don't have anywhere near the level of control over them I want. Mediocre as in T260. Internet was T230 or something, but the base tourism wasn't high enough because no airports and other things. And no IG

No Louvre because it's a waste of a policy...or am I wrong?

It's pretty much a free bonus to Tourism (IIRC it's approximately a +88 Tourism for free, pretty much).

In addition you should be swimming in Policies with full Aesthetics and Creative Expression.

 

[stormtrooper412]

Yeah but you run into another thing, at least I do, I CAN NOT staff Sistine, Uffizi and Hermitage, I simply can't seem to generate that many Artists over one game, including the free ones, the game drags on the final few to a point I win before. It's in the 280-290 range without many wonders, and around 260-270 with them. I think it takes a really good start and an even better science game for an earlier Internet and NVC. My tourism RARELY goes over 500 in a game as well, so I think the whole point is maxing out the effort to close down on Internet and not allow AIs that much turns of cultural CS alliances. And most definitely do not allow them to win the World Fair. I keep saying if you know you can't win, vote against it, make sure it never happens. It would have saved me a ton of turns many times

 

[GPuzzle]

Yeah, I started going Sistine-Globe because I could staff Globe and Sistine boost Culture so it works as a denier. Uffizi is meh.

 

[ShakaKhan]

I CAN NOT staff Sistine, Uffizi and Hermitage, I simply can't seem to generate that many Artists over one game

Here's what I do for deity games...

I often build and always staff the artists guild before the writer's guild. On deity, you're not going to get Great Library (unless you conquer it, in which case you often capture the GW's and it's already filled) or Globe Theatre (it is feasible to acquire, but the opportunity cost is usually too much at that point of the game, it would usually come at the cost of not getting Pisa and although Pisa has no slots to fill, it's still more powerful towards a culture victory.) So the only writers theming bonus that applies is Oxford (unless there's a fourth one in some mod/patch I don't have) which requires two GWoW that aren't you and of different eras. In my experience (and results may vary) the AI often each get a GWoW that's medieval era, all 7. While I check it every few turns, nobody seems to get another one until the industrial era. So you're not going to be able to take advantage of the only theming bonus available to writers on deity until well later, which lets you prioritize artists over writers, especially since, as you mentioned, there's more of a need for them.

So I'll usually staff the artists guild early enough that I have one GWoA around the time I get education. I don't pop this until I enter renaissance because the second one almost always comes just after I enter renaissance. The two of them fill Sistine.

Next I'll try to time completing Uffizi just after I receive the next GA (1of3). Uffizi gives you a "free" one (2of3) and the next policy to take is the free GA in Aesthetics(3of3.) Now that one's done.

Finally, there's usually a moderate delay before the next one comes around since the free one from Aesthetics bumped up the cost. During this time, you're entering industrial which means you're saving your faith. When the next one comes around (or optimally 1 turn before) you spend 2500 faith on two great artists in two different cities on the same turn. That way all three have their action on the same turn and you trade to get the theming bonus, which is one of the easier theming bonus; whoever got Parthenon USUALLY has a classical era GWoA, there's always somebody else that has medieval or renaissance (or both) and yours at that point is often modern if you Oxford-slinged radio.

 

[Erneiz Hyde]

In stormtrooper's case, he probably meant the game has been won before he's even able to theme all the wonders.

 

[Manpanzee]

Personally I think that all this business about Renaissance wonders and Great Works and Aesthetics is a bit of a red herring. For fast victory I think your policy and build priorities are going to be similar to science victory up until the Modern Era. This means fill out Rationalism ASAP. If I have policies between my opening tree and the Renaissance, I'll often go for the more generically powerful Patronage as my filler policy. I might not start on Aesthetics until the Modern Era, when I should have won the World's Fair. This is culture victory we're talking about -- in the late-game, you're going to generate a LOT of culture. You'll have enough to pick up the policies you need to finish out the culture victory without needing to spend your midgame policies there.

The reality is that 90+% of your tourism is going to come post-Hotels. The best thing you can do is get to Hotels super fast and start generating a meaningful amount of tourism faster. If you're ahead on science, base tourism shouldn't be too big of an issue. Maybe you spam out Archaeologists and get every site on the map before anyone else has the tech. Maybe you amass some Infantry and Artillery and take the capitals of all of the culture leaders. There are options.

The endgame of culture victory is quite different from science victory, but the base goal is mostly the same: get big. If you have the biggest, bestest empire, you can win World's Fair and International Games no problem. You can get all the late-game wonders. You can get all the Antiquity Sites. If you're spending significant resources trying to actually acquire tourism in the first 150 turns, you're probably only holding yourself back.

 

[Sclb]

I usually don't build Uffizi if I can get Sistine Chapel, it is not needed and difficult to theme as ST412 noticed. I usually go for Piza, use the GE from Piza to rush Globe Theater for the free writer. Depending on the availability of culture CS, I may use writers for culture or great works. It is actually best to complete ideology or rationalism before getting additional policies in Aesthetics. Only the opener and maybe Cultural Centers is all you need early on.
The only Renaissance theming wonder that really helps would be Sistine Chapel, and the main reason to get it is to deny AI from building it, as the culture increase is significant.

 

[consentient]

most definitely do not allow them to win the World Fair. I keep saying if you know you can't win, vote against it, make sure it never happens.

Because of the number of votes people get in the first WC, I usually propose it for the Diplo boost, then make sure it isn;t passed. That's easy. But stopping IG from happening if I'm not ready is less easy. Sometimes the necessary bribes are too costly.

I often build and always staff the artists guild before the writer's guild.

I'll give this a go, thanks for the tip.

the base goal is mostly the same: get big. If you have the biggest, bestest empire, you can win World's Fair and International Games no problem. You can get all the late-game wonders. You can get all the Antiquity Sites. If you're spending significant resources trying to actually acquire tourism in the first 150 turns, you're probably only holding yourself back.

I don't think I spent much in the way of resources trying to acquire tourism, really. We can look at this in more detail when the next CDG goes ahead, where I can demonstrate my finish.

But I still want to take issue with the idea that IG is easily winnable. In my game, I easily had a big population, with maximum production, but one of the AIs that had been at war on 3 fronts still had more hammers. If he chooses to put them into the project despite being in 3 wars, THERE IS NOTHING the human can do.

It's also not true that you can get all the antiquity sites. Many games I get to Archaeology pretty early, but some of the AIs have beaten me to it, taken the ones in their lands and started on the neighbouring lands.

I know that you're a better player than I am, but I made pretty good time in this last game and was still frustrated by the Sites and the IG.

@Manpanzee: Would you consider making an LP for the CDG #2? I'd like to see you overcome the obstacles that befell me, and I'm sure a lot of people would find it really instructional.

 

[stormtrooper412]

yeah not much you can do against an AI who has 15 cities

 

[Manpanzee]

But I still want to take issue with the idea that IG is easily winnable. In my game, I easily had a big population, with maximum production, but one of the AIs that had been at war on 3 fronts still had more hammers. If he chooses to put them into the project despite being in 3 wars, THERE IS NOTHING the human can do.

It's also not true that you can get all the antiquity sites. Many games I get to Archaeology pretty early, but some of the AIs have beaten me to it, taken the ones in their lands and started on the neighbouring lands.

I know that you're a better player than I am, but I made pretty good time in this last game and was still frustrated by the Sites and the IG.

@Manpanzee: Would you consider making an LP for the CDG #2? I'd like to see you overcome the obstacles that befell me, and I'm sure a lot of people would find it really instructional.

Yes, it's hard to give universal advice because lots of things depend on how you play. In my experience IG is nearly always winnable, but if it's not for you then the best course of action will vary. I do question whether you truly had "maximum production", though. There are pretty much always ways to have more if you need it. E.g., you can let your cities starve temporarily in order to work every single hill tile and Engineer specialist you have. This can add a lot of hammers on top of normal "full production". If you've out-developed the AI you can also have lots of Factories/HydroPlants/SolarPlants/etc. You can borrow money to buy more of these if you really need to. I do believe it should usually be possible to get to #1 in production somehow.

As for Antiquity Sites, getting all of them is probably a bit of exaggeration, but you can get enough to fully stuff all the Museums you can build. If you get to Archaeology first you can always camp units on a bunch of the sites to keep them secure. You need units, so this is costly, but it's an option.

I probably will not play the CDG (prefer exploring my own maps), but I have been thinking about doing a Germany culture game. The idea is fast science into Panzer rush as my means of acquiring tourism. If I end up doing that I will share the results here with notes on what the timings looked like and how my tourism ramped up over time.