No, I'm saying that while you're researching refrigeration, ecology, etc. to move up to internet - very expensive techs with no cost reduction as no one else has them yet, if you can steal all but one or two of the prereqs for radar it's worth a few turns diversion to get airports up.
Optimal Late-game Freedom Culture Victories
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Usually for me, by that time in the game, stealing tech takes at least 30-60 turns, and not worth waiting for it. I can bulb to internet faster than that. It's much better to just use the spy to coup whatever CS you need, especially the culture ones.
stormtrooper412
Peacemongering Turtlesaur
yeah, after you steal a couple of (early) techs, the AIs wise up and you're better off switching over to coups
I have finished the Germany game I talked about. I managed a t237 victory. I did not create a single Great Work. I only built two pre-Industrial wonders (Oracle and Leaning Tower). I did not generate any tourism until t164.
I played a mostly straightforward science game up into the Modern Era, picking up Research Labs before Archaeology. I wanted to stay peaceful until later, but I did end up capturing a couple cities -- I played on the Great Plains template, which is very small and guarantees you'll have contested borders. I had an Honor-Babylon next door who DOW'ed me early, which meant I needed to build a bunch of Archer-types for defense. Once I had the units, I figured I might as well use them, and after racking up a bunch of promotions I was eventually able to clean up Babylon, securing my first plundered Great Works of the game at t164.
Things threatened to go a bit haywire when I discovered I didn't have oil. I improvised by researching Ballistics and upgrading a bunch of Machine Guns. Logistics Machine Guns tear through Industrial Era cities pretty easily, and I quickly secured the oil for Panzers. If 60-strength Machine Guns are good, 80-strength Panzers are even better. With 6 movement points, Panzers get around the map fast and are able to pillage constantly, so they never have to stop to heal.
I swept my way through the map, and ended the game with over 1,100 tourism. Victory after International Games was very quick. I believe my passive tourism generation was only about 10,000, but by wiping one of the culture leaders I was able to Musician-burn through the remaining Civs with ease.
One of the included images shows my Great Works collection. As I said, I didn't make any of my own. I did dig up around 8 artifacts. There are 31 Great Works visible in the picture, plus more off-screen (I have a lot of cities). This is more Great Works than you could possibly hope to make yourself, but why bother when you can just take them?
I played a mostly straightforward science game up into the Modern Era, picking up Research Labs before Archaeology. I wanted to stay peaceful until later, but I did end up capturing a couple cities -- I played on the Great Plains template, which is very small and guarantees you'll have contested borders. I had an Honor-Babylon next door who DOW'ed me early, which meant I needed to build a bunch of Archer-types for defense. Once I had the units, I figured I might as well use them, and after racking up a bunch of promotions I was eventually able to clean up Babylon, securing my first plundered Great Works of the game at t164.
Things threatened to go a bit haywire when I discovered I didn't have oil. I improvised by researching Ballistics and upgrading a bunch of Machine Guns. Logistics Machine Guns tear through Industrial Era cities pretty easily, and I quickly secured the oil for Panzers. If 60-strength Machine Guns are good, 80-strength Panzers are even better. With 6 movement points, Panzers get around the map fast and are able to pillage constantly, so they never have to stop to heal.
I swept my way through the map, and ended the game with over 1,100 tourism. Victory after International Games was very quick. I believe my passive tourism generation was only about 10,000, but by wiping one of the culture leaders I was able to Musician-burn through the remaining Civs with ease.
One of the included images shows my Great Works collection. As I said, I didn't make any of my own. I did dig up around 8 artifacts. There are 31 Great Works visible in the picture, plus more off-screen (I have a lot of cities). This is more Great Works than you could possibly hope to make yourself, but why bother when you can just take them?
Attachments
My path was: Biology (to reveal Oil) --> Machine Guns --> Hotels --> Panzers --> Airports --> Internet
I would have gone straight for Panzers, but I had time to pick up Hotels first before acquiring Oil. The military techs are what capture the Great Works and thus provide the base tourism. The tourism multipliers need the base tourism to be effective, and thus aren't necessary until later.
I am winning with Musicians immediately after International Games. What matters most is maximizing my tourism during this window. As such, it doesn't matter too much when I get the tourism techs -- my tourism during the Games is going to be the same if I got Internet 20 turns ago as it would be if I got Internet 2 turns ago. But conquest takes time. The sooner I start plundering cities, the more Great Works I'll have during the games. Hence, conquest techs first.
I would have gone straight for Panzers, but I had time to pick up Hotels first before acquiring Oil. The military techs are what capture the Great Works and thus provide the base tourism. The tourism multipliers need the base tourism to be effective, and thus aren't necessary until later.
I am winning with Musicians immediately after International Games. What matters most is maximizing my tourism during this window. As such, it doesn't matter too much when I get the tourism techs -- my tourism during the Games is going to be the same if I got Internet 20 turns ago as it would be if I got Internet 2 turns ago. But conquest takes time. The sooner I start plundering cities, the more Great Works I'll have during the games. Hence, conquest techs first.
Nigel_Tufnel2
King
That's a very interesting approach!
How do you adapt if it gets passed on the second vote and you can't prevent it? Winning it requires a ton of production at a very inconvenient time when you need to get archaeologists etc. And tourism is likely going to be quite low at that point anyway. Is the right play to let someone else win it and focus on the big picture?
I'm asking because very recently I've botched a game as France on a Pangaea. All was going well, had LToP, Globe and Sistine, took 2 cities from Morocco for Chichen, ToA, Parthenon, Notre Dame and a 150gpt peace deal (Foreign Legions seem stupidly powerful for the time they become available), I even passed World Religion Shinto. But IG gets passed on the same vote and I don't know what to do, so I rush things, put 1800+ hammers into the project, get the first place and completely mistime everything. I'd still win the game eventually, but that wouldn't really feel like a victory to me.
Since CV seems to be a production-intensive variant of a science game, I have a feeling that going Order/Commerce might be competitive with Freedom for very fast CV. You miss +34% from Broadcast Towers, but get super cheap buildings, quick factories with a science bonus, and free up some policies that you'd normally spend in Freedom, perhaps to finish Rationalism quickly to get both Internet and Radar during the second-vote IG. Sort of like a Globalization rush for a quick Diplo win.
stormtrooper412
Peacemongering Turtlesaur
Yeah, getting Musicians after they've been powered by IG is a nice way to end things. It goes even better during a Carnival :] Did you save up on faith and readied (my guess is) 3 Musicians right off the bat?
There have been talks that Order matches well with CVs, its only downside being the fact that their tourism bonuses may not be activated at all, on Deity you're unlikely to have the most happiness on the map and bonus to other Order civs is luck of the draw. However, it may not be that much of a game changer in the long run
There have been talks that Order matches well with CVs, its only downside being the fact that their tourism bonuses may not be activated at all, on Deity you're unlikely to have the most happiness on the map and bonus to other Order civs is luck of the draw. However, it may not be that much of a game changer in the long run
I like how you went for a Domination Victory and just abused Domination's native strength to win a cultural victory.
At that point, you could've gone for anything, and it'd have worked, since you just have hampered them and buffed yourself so much so quickly.
It's a valid late-game cultural, but it's nearly a cultural victory in name only.
At that point, you could've gone for anything, and it'd have worked, since you just have hampered them and buffed yourself so much so quickly.
It's a valid late-game cultural, but it's nearly a cultural victory in name only.
For culture victories, I make CS control my top midgame gold priority, so that just doesn't happen. In this game, I borrowed a ton of money in the 10 turns before the second Congress, then bought out nearly every CS the turn before the vote happened. Pretty easy to pass what I want in that case.
Winning with IG on second Congress seems really hard. I did it in that France/Deity/Continents thing for a t223 win a while back, but for that to happen it required a very late Congress founding -- I checked my old posts and the WC still hadn't been founded at t145. Trying to win on the second Congress is the barrier that needs to be crossed for super-fast Culture Victories to happen, but it seems like it requires a legendary game, unusual circumstances, or both.
There were a lot of Religious CS on the map, so I had really nice faith generation. I was able to buy three and spawn one. It turned out that the last Musician was superfluous, as I was going to get there naturally on the same turn without it.
I agree with you guys that Order is interesting for CV. I don't think that the tourism bonuses in Freedom make that big of an impact. I just like the specialist tenets so much that it's hard for me to want to choose something different. But Order definitely has good stuff too.
bigwillystyle
Chieftain
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2006
- Messages
- 84
My CS game is so bad. I finished up the Brazil DCL on T270 but I could have done it by T240 if I hadn't completely screwed up. I failed to prioritize the Cultural CSs and I realized I had allowed the Cultural leader to ally them all collectively for 150+ turns. I'm a moron.
I think CS control and IG timing in particular may be the real blocker for me. I tried the Korean DCL this weekend aiming for CV. I got Internet before 250 (and NVC online about ten turns later), which is about the best I have ever done, but it just didnt make any difference. If I could have paired an IG win with my late game GMu, I think that would have done it. But Alex was in that game, and I never even had the chance to make proposals!
I would love to see a game plan for CV that is robust enough to work for a T300 or later peaceful Deity CV.
stormtrooper412
Peacemongering Turtlesaur
Well, it's fairly straightforward for the most part, aim to have 100-ish tourism, then spike it to 250ish with Internet and 400-ish with NVC. Then see how strong the Musicians are. If you still can't cut the mustard, rush buy Airports. It should set you up at the latest in the 280s
On deity, you would also want to always block the WC proposal that increases culture for WW. Very likely the AI will benefit a lot more than the player and make it that much harder to win. I only try to pass it if it's very late in the game and clear that I had a lead.
I think fast peaceful CV is only possible if you have the science to back it up with Internet around 210. On deity, after that, the AI tech will include broadcast towers and their culture ramps up significantly. 250 Internet without lots of WW + GW + landmarks isn't gonna cut it. Actually if you want to play steady and slow, you might want to consider going conquest mode and capture AI great works and world wonders. You can make anything happen with nukes, stealth bombers, and xcoms if you get there ahead of AI. On the Assyria CDG, I was on the way to winning CV also, because of a lot of captured GW, and I had every tech already, including Internet.
I think fast peaceful CV is only possible if you have the science to back it up with Internet around 210. On deity, after that, the AI tech will include broadcast towers and their culture ramps up significantly. 250 Internet without lots of WW + GW + landmarks isn't gonna cut it. Actually if you want to play steady and slow, you might want to consider going conquest mode and capture AI great works and world wonders. You can make anything happen with nukes, stealth bombers, and xcoms if you get there ahead of AI. On the Assyria CDG, I was on the way to winning CV also, because of a lot of captured GW, and I had every tech already, including Internet.
I think this is about it. I dont really care so much about fast, T300 would be more than early enough for me.
Warmongering CV is straightforward enough. It is peaceful Deity CV that escapes me.
I had several sub 200 CVs with Shoshone.
I think most of them were 4x pathfinder opening, with Weapon --> Citizen/Culture(Citizen when you go to pop 3)--> Weapon from ruins. That way you can take an opponent cap at 40-45, or get an expansion of his and a lot of money from him giving up.
Don't really care about any wonders, most of your tourism comes from internet + center, getting that as early as possible is the most important.
Spies I usually send to the Cultural CS, it's not worth going for techs. You can try get XP and then coup CS if somebody has a lot of influence.
Might play a game now, haven't played in a while so can't remember proper buildorders etc.
A lot of the supposedly good CV-Civs are straight up garbage because their start is superslow.
I think most of them were 4x pathfinder opening, with Weapon --> Citizen/Culture(Citizen when you go to pop 3)--> Weapon from ruins. That way you can take an opponent cap at 40-45, or get an expansion of his and a lot of money from him giving up.
Don't really care about any wonders, most of your tourism comes from internet + center, getting that as early as possible is the most important.
Spies I usually send to the Cultural CS, it's not worth going for techs. You can try get XP and then coup CS if somebody has a lot of influence.
Might play a game now, haven't played in a while so can't remember proper buildorders etc.
A lot of the supposedly good CV-Civs are straight up garbage because their start is superslow.
Only with Shoshone so far, didn't really try with other Civs though. But prob gonna be harder, Shoshone op.
Spoiler :
The game I just started, screenshot kinda got cut off, it's T67, I got enough to buy walls but doubt I need it so I will fend off the american.
I got GL and Parthenon build them both myself, opened 4x pathfinder, got pretty lucky with ruins. Attacked Venice and took his caravans, saw he had walls, camped him for a bit and he gave up quickly giving me ~250g 10GPT and Marble. India didn't have walls and I rolled over him pretty quickly.
I also opened Piety just for fun to see how it works out. Not sure if I get a Religion though.
Acken
Deity
T67 HS sounds like quick speed.
