Realism Invictus

[salty mud]

Great, thanks. I'll probably just use the load time for the same thing though!

Regards

 

[Enyavar]

I really like the ideas about slaves (capturing slaves when razing a city).
Also the reminder that civilisations are WAY to quick in improving their lands, even with worker costs increasing. I also had a related idea for that and I'd like to share it here:

Currently, a worker I built in the ancient era can make it to the information age if I manage to keep him away from enemies. In some cases, I didn't even need to build new workers, because I could capture them everywhere and instantly use them. And since I never need to upgrade, the first workers last until the end of the game, much unlike most buildings in my cities...

Why not making workers have a more finite lifespan, and you need to upgrade them like troops? Currently, automatic upgrades happen with a 25% increase at each of Iron Working, Mill Machinery, Labor Specialization, Steam Engine, Combustion Engine, Computers, which makes workers perform with 250% efficiency at the end game (not counting civic bonuses).
I thought about it and the separate slave unit gave me the idea: Create a new worker for each civic. I can't help it, instead of a short description, I already wrote an entire proposal in essay-length.

Spoiler :

We start with the "tribal worker". National unit (maximum: 2). Movement 1. Work efficiency is 100% when running tribalism, otherwise 75%. Doesn't benefit from any worker techs. Can only be built under Tribalism. Costs 120 hammers. Can't revolt under its own civic. Can't be sacrificed. Can't die from exhaustion. When captured by enemy, turns into either slave or serf. Can be upgraded into either of the following for lump sum of gold.

The "caste worker" is a national unit like the tribal one (maximum: 3?). Movement 1. Work efficiency is 125% when running Caste System, otherwise 50%. Benefits from Iron Working, Mill Machinery, Labor Specialization, Steam Engine. Can only be built under Caste System. Costs 180 hammers. Can't revolt under its own civic. Can't be sacrificed. Can't die from exhaustion. When captured by enemy, turns into either slave or serf. Can be upgraded into either of the following for lump sum of gold.

There is also the "slave". Movement 1. Work efficiency is 50% when running slavery, otherwise 25%. Benefits from Iron Working and Labor Specialization (each +25%), but not Mill Machinery. Can only be built under Slavery, only in cities with a slave market. Costs 60 hammers. Can revolt even under its own civic. Can be sacrificed for 40 hammers. Can die from exhaustion (often!). Can't build regular mines/farms, only slave mines and slave farms that benefit from running slavery and slave markets. Spezial: Can also be created when victorious in battle. Capturing an enemy worker when running slavery yields a slave. Razing an enemy city: Every 2 pop yields one slave. Whipping mechanics are changed: You can whip your own city any time to sacrifice half the population - each pop yields one slave and 10 turns of anger (can be reduced to 8 turns by either "mob justice" or the civics Civil Service/Custom Tradition). When captured by enemy, always remains a slave. Can be upgraded into either of the following for lump sum of gold.

Next, we have the "serf". Movement 1. Work efficiency is 100% when running serfdom, otherwise 75%. Benefits from Iron Working, Mill Machinery, Labor Specialization (each +25%). Can only be built under Serfdom, only in cities with a manor or a castle. Costs 100 hammers. Can revolt even under its own civic. Can be sacrificed for 30 hammers. Can die from exhaustion (sometimes). Spezial: Can also be created when victorious in battle. Capturing an enemy worker when running serfdom yields a serf. Razing an enemy city: Every 3 pop yields one serf. When captured by enemy, serfs turn into either slave or serf. Can be upgraded into either of the following for lump sum of gold.

The "Free Worker" has a movement rate of 2. Work efficiency is 125% when running Free Commoners, otherwise 75%. Benefits from all Labor Techs (up to +150% under Computers). Can only be built under Free Commoners. Costs 140 hammers and 1 gold per turn. Can't revolt under its own civic. Can't be sacrificed. Can die from exhaustion (rarely). When captured by enemy, turns into either slave or serf. Can be upgraded into either of the following for lump sum of gold.

The "Collar Worker" is like the Free worker, but slightly different stats. Movement 2, Efficiency is 150% when running Working Class, otherwise 75%. Benefits from all Labor Techs (up to +150% under Computers). Can only be built under Working Class. Costs 150 hammers and 1 gold per turn. Can't revolt under its own civic. Can't be sacrificed. Can't die from exhaustion. When captured by enemy, turns into either slave or serf. Can be upgraded to Free Worker or into either of the following for lump sum of gold.

The "Forced Worker" is like the slave, but with vastly different stats. Movement 2, Efficiency is 150% when running Forced Labor, otherwise 75%. Benefits from all Labor Techs except Computers (+125% with Comb. Engine). Can only be built in cities with Labor Camp. Costs 120 hammers. Can revolt even under its own civic. Can be sacrificed for 80 hammers. Spezial: Capturing an enemy worker (except slaves) when running Forced Labor yields a forced worker. Razing an enemy city: Every 4 pop yields one forced worker. Whipping mechanics: You can whip your own city once per turn and 2 pop yields one forced worker and 10 turns of anger (can be reduced?). When captured by enemy, turns into serf. Can be upgraded for lump sum of gold.

The "Union Worker" is like the Free Worker again, but different stats. Movement 3 (!), Efficiency is 100% when running Labor Union, otherwise 50%. Benefits from all Labor Techs (up to +150% under Computers). Can only be built under Labor Union. Costs 180 hammers and 2 gold per turn. Can't revolt under its own civic. Can't be sacrificed. Can't die from exhaustion. Can be upgraded to other workers.

All workers can revolt if not under their own civic: They will then turn into a revolting unit and need to be crushed. Revolts should often occur among slaves, serfs or forced workers when not in their own civic, less likely with slaves and serfs in their own civic, a lot less often with other combinations.

Non-labor civics keep their modifiers with all workers, i.e. they perform 25% worse under Nomadism, 25% better under Personality Cult, etc..

Change any idea from this concept if needed. I'm curious to know how others think about it.

 

[arizzi]

Been playing the mod for years, and am always exited to see new svn updates. Just wanted to share an enormous appreciation for what you guys do and have done.

An issue I have been having while playing England on the world map, is that I try to colonize america and australia, but the colonies I create (because to the research penalty incurred) keep wanting to break away from me, by either refusing tribute, leading to war, or by simply deciding to break away (which I thought capitulated vassals couldn't do.) They do this even though they are incredibly less powerful than I am. I can easily re conquer all their cities (and usually gift all the cities back once they re-capitulate), but they just keep trying to break away, despite my strong military presence.

Also I noticed the problem of my colonies whipping their population continuously, which really impedes their growth. They also don't seem to like building workers, and instead focus on their military units (which I eventually destroy anyway when they rebel).

Is there a way to prevent the Ai from trying to break away if they are much weaker than you are militarily?

Also for some reason they ai can never keep up with my research, even with the same amount of cities, and on monarch difficulty. I usually far outstrip all of them.

 

[Shuikkanen]

Yeah, I noticed the same kind of problems with vassals wanting to break away immediately on random maps a long while back, and I'm playing exclusively without vassals.

They also don't seem to like building workers, and instead focus on their military units (which I eventually destroy anyway when they rebel).

Are these vassaled Native American civs on the world map you're talking about, or colonies you've released? If it's the first, they can't build workers until they've researched a specific tech (I forget which) because they're minor civs. They build foragers until then, which can't build all of the improvements. Also, they have a tribal council building or some such in all of they're cities (generated by their version of the palace) which severely hinders research.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Another call to everyone. Just as in case with cities, here is one thing anyone can help us with, regardless of modding skills. Found a pedia entry that you don't like or that's grossly inaccurate? Please rewrite it and post it here, and I'll include it! I know there is a load of bull in pedia currently, but since it has to be rewritten manually and doesn't affect actual gameplay, I usually put it way behind my schedule while fixing gameplay bugs and refining features. So it never gets done.

I really like the ideas about slaves (capturing slaves when razing a city).
Also the reminder that civilisations are WAY to quick in improving their lands, even with worker costs increasing. I also had a related idea for that and I'd like to share it here:

Currently, a worker I built in the ancient era can make it to the information age if I manage to keep him away from enemies. In some cases, I didn't even need to build new workers, because I could capture them everywhere and instantly use them. And since I never need to upgrade, the first workers last until the end of the game, much unlike most buildings in my cities...

Why not making workers have a more finite lifespan, and you need to upgrade them like troops? Currently, automatic upgrades happen with a 25% increase at each of Iron Working, Mill Machinery, Labor Specialization, Steam Engine, Combustion Engine, Computers, which makes workers perform with 250% efficiency at the end game (not counting civic bonuses).
I thought about it and the separate slave unit gave me the idea: Create a new worker for each civic. I can't help it, instead of a short description, I already wrote an entire proposal in essay-length.

Spoiler :

We start with the "tribal worker". National unit (maximum: 2). Movement 1. Work efficiency is 100% when running tribalism, otherwise 75%. Doesn't benefit from any worker techs. Can only be built under Tribalism. Costs 120 hammers. Can't revolt under its own civic. Can't be sacrificed. Can't die from exhaustion. When captured by enemy, turns into either slave or serf. Can be upgraded into either of the following for lump sum of gold.

The "caste worker" is a national unit like the tribal one (maximum: 3?). Movement 1. Work efficiency is 125% when running Caste System, otherwise 50%. Benefits from Iron Working, Mill Machinery, Labor Specialization, Steam Engine. Can only be built under Caste System. Costs 180 hammers. Can't revolt under its own civic. Can't be sacrificed. Can't die from exhaustion. When captured by enemy, turns into either slave or serf. Can be upgraded into either of the following for lump sum of gold.

There is also the "slave". Movement 1. Work efficiency is 50% when running slavery, otherwise 25%. Benefits from Iron Working and Labor Specialization (each +25%), but not Mill Machinery. Can only be built under Slavery, only in cities with a slave market. Costs 60 hammers. Can revolt even under its own civic. Can be sacrificed for 40 hammers. Can die from exhaustion (often!). Can't build regular mines/farms, only slave mines and slave farms that benefit from running slavery and slave markets. Spezial: Can also be created when victorious in battle. Capturing an enemy worker when running slavery yields a slave. Razing an enemy city: Every 2 pop yields one slave. Whipping mechanics are changed: You can whip your own city any time to sacrifice half the population - each pop yields one slave and 10 turns of anger (can be reduced to 8 turns by either "mob justice" or the civics Civil Service/Custom Tradition). When captured by enemy, always remains a slave. Can be upgraded into either of the following for lump sum of gold.

Next, we have the "serf". Movement 1. Work efficiency is 100% when running serfdom, otherwise 75%. Benefits from Iron Working, Mill Machinery, Labor Specialization (each +25%). Can only be built under Serfdom, only in cities with a manor or a castle. Costs 100 hammers. Can revolt even under its own civic. Can be sacrificed for 30 hammers. Can die from exhaustion (sometimes). Spezial: Can also be created when victorious in battle. Capturing an enemy worker when running serfdom yields a serf. Razing an enemy city: Every 3 pop yields one serf. When captured by enemy, serfs turn into either slave or serf. Can be upgraded into either of the following for lump sum of gold.

The "Free Worker" has a movement rate of 2. Work efficiency is 125% when running Free Commoners, otherwise 75%. Benefits from all Labor Techs (up to +150% under Computers). Can only be built under Free Commoners. Costs 140 hammers and 1 gold per turn. Can't revolt under its own civic. Can't be sacrificed. Can die from exhaustion (rarely). When captured by enemy, turns into either slave or serf. Can be upgraded into either of the following for lump sum of gold.

The "Collar Worker" is like the Free worker, but slightly different stats. Movement 2, Efficiency is 150% when running Working Class, otherwise 75%. Benefits from all Labor Techs (up to +150% under Computers). Can only be built under Working Class. Costs 150 hammers and 1 gold per turn. Can't revolt under its own civic. Can't be sacrificed. Can't die from exhaustion. When captured by enemy, turns into either slave or serf. Can be upgraded to Free Worker or into either of the following for lump sum of gold.

The "Forced Worker" is like the slave, but with vastly different stats. Movement 2, Efficiency is 150% when running Forced Labor, otherwise 75%. Benefits from all Labor Techs except Computers (+125% with Comb. Engine). Can only be built in cities with Labor Camp. Costs 120 hammers. Can revolt even under its own civic. Can be sacrificed for 80 hammers. Spezial: Capturing an enemy worker (except slaves) when running Forced Labor yields a forced worker. Razing an enemy city: Every 4 pop yields one forced worker. Whipping mechanics: You can whip your own city once per turn and 2 pop yields one forced worker and 10 turns of anger (can be reduced?). When captured by enemy, turns into serf. Can be upgraded for lump sum of gold.

The "Union Worker" is like the Free Worker again, but different stats. Movement 3 (!), Efficiency is 100% when running Labor Union, otherwise 50%. Benefits from all Labor Techs (up to +150% under Computers). Can only be built under Labor Union. Costs 180 hammers and 2 gold per turn. Can't revolt under its own civic. Can't be sacrificed. Can't die from exhaustion. Can be upgraded to other workers.

All workers can revolt if not under their own civic: They will then turn into a revolting unit and need to be crushed. Revolts should often occur among slaves, serfs or forced workers when not in their own civic, less likely with slaves and serfs in their own civic, a lot less often with other combinations.

Non-labor civics keep their modifiers with all workers, i.e. they perform 25% worse under Nomadism, 25% better under Personality Cult, etc..

Change any idea from this concept if needed. I'm curious to know how others think about it.

I've been toying with the concept of worker upgrades for quite a while now. I am not sure the scope you are outlining is justified by the amount of effort it would take, but I would definitely like to see some worker upgrades in near future. At the very least from manual labor to mechanized labor. I agree that some worker speed upgrades should move to those upgrades from techs, and probably the worker speed upgrades will also be toned down.

Been playing the mod for years, and am always exited to see new svn updates. Just wanted to share an enormous appreciation for what you guys do and have done.

An issue I have been having while playing England on the world map, is that I try to colonize america and australia, but the colonies I create (because to the research penalty incurred) keep wanting to break away from me, by either refusing tribute, leading to war, or by simply deciding to break away (which I thought capitulated vassals couldn't do.) They do this even though they are incredibly less powerful than I am. I can easily re conquer all their cities (and usually gift all the cities back once they re-capitulate), but they just keep trying to break away, despite my strong military presence.

Also I noticed the problem of my colonies whipping their population continuously, which really impedes their growth. They also don't seem to like building workers, and instead focus on their military units (which I eventually destroy anyway when they rebel).

Is there a way to prevent the Ai from trying to break away if they are much weaker than you are militarily?

Yes, it is a known bug that we have yet to correct. Currently colonies will invariably break away from you, as peaceful vassalization is all but disabled for AI, and colonies count as "peacefully" vassalized. We will fix it.

 

[Loffas]

I wanted to test the SVN version of RI. so i created a folder called "Realism" like described in http://www.realism-invictus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=825 . But the mod will not load. Is the SVN link in the description still accurate?
Should i use the latest official mod version as a base for the SVN version? What I mean is, would i need to link the "normal" realism invictus folder (Maybe renamed to realism) to the SVN trunk to get it working?

BR Loffas

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

I wanted to test the SVN version of RI. so i created a folder called "Realism" like described in http://www.realism-invictus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=825 . But the mod will not load. Is the SVN link in the description still accurate?
Should i use the latest official mod version as a base for the SVN version? What I mean is, would i need to link the "normal" realism invictus folder (Maybe renamed to realism) to the SVN trunk to get it working?

BR Loffas

How long have you actually waited for it to load? Because it may take up to 20-30 minutes. You can check in process explorer if Civ 4 exe is running as a background process. If it does, the mod is loading.

 

[Loffas]

Ah. Okey. No i didnt wait that long. Just because the regular mod goes fast i just figgured something was wrong.
Allright, ill try that.
Thanks for your lightning speed response!!!

BR Loffas

 

[sazhdapec]

Rooftops. A city has lots of vantage points even after the walls have been breached. Ancient/medieval urban combat is a very messy business, but even an unarmed citizen sitting on the roof hurling thatches down could hurt an armored soldier, as Roman military history shows.

Still, why archers? This explains that a city can have a defence bonus but doesn't explain why archery units have an innate bonus in any city.

Civilopedia units' strategy entries before renaissance.

Spoiler :

1) Swordsman: Build this melee unit with high power to counter other melee units as it gets a bonus against them. Recommended promotions: shock, cover, combat.

Medieval swordsman: Build this melee unit to counter other melee units as it gets a bonus against them. Recommended promotions: shock, cover, combat.

Axeman: Build this melee unit when you want to attack cities. Recommended promotions: city raider, guerilla, combat.

Man-at-Arms: Build this melee unit when you want to attack cities. Recommended promotions: city raider, guerilla, combat.

2) Militia: The Militia is a backbone of an early game military until bronze working. With proper promotions this unit can do many tasks ranging from border protection to city assaults.

Spearman: Build this melee unit to counter charge mounted units, to contest enemy melee units and to protect your recon units from archers' counterattacks. Recommended promotions: formation, shock, cover.

Pikeman: Build this melee unit with high power to counter charge mounted units and to defend cities. Recommended promotions: formation, city garrison, shock.

3) Scout: Build this recon unit when you want to explore new territory fast; it gets better results from Tribal Villages. Recommended promotions: forward observers, hit and run.

Peltast: The most powerful unit until iron working that doesn't require resources. Build it to counter melee units outside cities including slave revolts and to give your troops a powerful recon aid. Recommended promotions: forward observers, camouflage, guerilla, woodsman.

Explorer: Build this recon unit to strengthen your army in the field and to give your troops a powerful recon aid. Recommended promotions: forward observers, camouflage, guerilla, woodsman.

4) Battering ram: Build this siege unit to help your troops attack cities. Use direct attacks carefully. Recommended promotions: siege bombardment, combat.

Catapult: Build this siege unit to help your troops attack cities. Use direct attacks carefully. Recommended promotions: siege bombardment, combat.

Trebuchet: Build this siege unit to help your troops attack cities. Use direct attacks carefully. Recommended promotions: siege bombardment, combat.

Bombard: Build this siege unit to help your troops attack cities and to weaken enemy units with ranged bombardment. Recommended promotions: siege bombardment, combat.

Heliopolis: The Heliopolis is a unique Siege Tower. It is extremely powerful when attacking cities directly but bring catapults to weaken cities' defences. Recommended promotions: city raider, guerilla, combat.

Great Bombard: Build this siege unit to help your troops attack cities and to weaken enemy units with improved ranged bombardment. Recommended promotions: siege bombardment, combat. Btw, this unit cannot attack but it has +50% city attack bonus.

5) Archer: Build this early archery unit to defend cities and choke points. Recommended promotions: drill, city garrison, patrols.

Composite Bowman: Build this improved archery unit to defend cities and to counter ranged mounted units. With proper promotions it is also good against recon units. Recommended promotions: drill, city garrison, patrols.

Longbowman: Build this archery unit with high power to defend cities and to protect your army against ranged mounted units. Recommended promotions: drill, patrols, combat.

Early crossbowman: Build this archery unit to defend cities, to protect your army against mounted units and to slaughter unprotected melee units. Recommended promotions: shock, guerilla, patrols.

Crossbowman: Build this archery unit to defend cities, to protect your army against mounted units and to slaughter unprotected melee units. Recommended promotions: shock, guerilla, patrols.

Arquebusier: Build this unit to attack enemies in the field. Since it's gunpowder based many promotions won't work against it. Recommended promotions: combat, patrols, guerilla.

6) Chariot: Build this early charge mounted unit to weaken enemy troops with collateral damage and to give your troops a powerful mobility aid. Recommended promotions: flanking, combat.

Cataphract: Build this charge mounted unit to strengthen your army in the field and to give your troops a powerful mobility aid. Recommended promotions: flanking, combat.

Medium Cavalry: Build this charge mounted unit to strengthen your army in the field and to give your troops a powerful mobility aid. Recommended promotions: flanking, combat.

War Elephant: Build this unique charge mounted unit to counter other charge mounted units, to strengthen your army in the field and to give your troops a powerful mobility aid. Protect them against foot archers and horse archers. Recommended promotions: flanking, combat.

Horseman: Build this fast charge mounted unit to counter enemy raiders and scouts and to give your troops a powerful mobility aid. Recommended promotions: flanking, blitz, speed.

Improved Horseman: Build this fast charge mounted unit to counter enemy raiders and scouts and to give your troops a powerful mobility aid. Recommended promotions: flanking, blitz, speed.

Pistolier: Build this ranged mounted unit to slaughter enemy armies without archery or gunpowder units and to give your troops a powerful recon aid. Recommended promotions: flanking, combat.

Horse Archer: Build this ranged mounted unit to attack charge mounted and melee units in the field and to give your troops a powerful recon aid. Recommended promotions: flanking, patrols, combat.

Improved Horse Archer: Build this ranged mounted unit to attack charge mounted and melee units in the field and to give your troops a powerful recon aid. Recommended promotions: flanking, patrols, combat.

Mujahid: This is a slower version of an Improved Horseman but with collateral damage and a pair of free promotions. It can be only built under Islam. Recommended promotions: raider, flanking, combat.

 

[[Y]]

New Woodsman upgrades are awesome and are what they should have always been. Thanks for the upgrade.

Another call to everyone. Just as in case with cities, here is one thing anyone can help us with, regardless of modding skills. Found a pedia entry that you don't like or that's grossly inaccurate? Please rewrite it and post it here, and I'll include it! I know there is a load of bull in pedia currently, but since it has to be rewritten manually and doesn't affect actual gameplay, I usually put it way behind my schedule while fixing gameplay bugs and refining features. So it never gets done.

I know things are very well entrenched in SVN, but have you guys ever considered switching to Git and hosting the code on Github.com? This would allow people to make change requests directly, and all you would have to do is view the changes and approve/deny/request modifications. There might also be tools/sites to do this with SVN, though my understanding is that SVN doesn't support this style of collaboration all too well.

I've been toying with the concept of worker upgrades for quite a while now. I am not sure the scope you are outlining is justified by the amount of effort it would take, but I would definitely like to see some worker upgrades in near future. At the very least from manual labor to mechanized labor. I agree that some worker speed upgrades should move to those upgrades from techs, and probably the worker speed upgrades will also be toned down

Had a thought today. What if improvements weren't part of the early game, and instead tiles were required to be worked by units to yield extra bonuses? Imagine the wood chopping mechanic, except it would only take 1 turn to complete, yield a very small bonus (exact nature depending on tile), and not alter the tile being worked. This would prevent ancient/classical improvement massing, tone down the early game improvement bonuses, and put a focus on having units work the land. It would probably require some Python/C programming, but the wood chopping element means the core tools already exist.

I mention putting a focus on "working the land" as it ties into a later theme of the game: moving from using improvements to using citizens. This change would add another step to the start, thus changing the process to one of: working with manual labor; then upgrading to mechanized improvements; and later to work in the cities.

 

[sazhdapec]

Wow, I lost so many articles, and there are several wrong pronouns
I don't think that medieval swordsman has high power when it becomes available. Unlike the regular swordsman I wouldn't suggest to build it for raw power. And what about the Great Bombard? Why does it have 50% city attack bonus when it can't attack? Btw, barbarian's primitive ram can bombard city defences faster than the regular one: 8% compared to 6%. Why is it primitive then?

Had a thought today. What if improvements weren't part of the early game, and instead tiles were required to be worked by units to yield extra bonuses? Imagine the wood chopping mechanic, except it would only take 1 turn to complete, yield a very small bonus (exact nature depending on tile), and not alter the tile being worked. This would prevent ancient/classical improvement massing, tone down the early game improvement bonuses, and put a focus on having units work the land. It would probably require some Python/C programming, but the wood chopping element means the core tools already exist.

I mention putting a focus on "working the land" as it ties into a later theme of the game: moving from using improvements to using citizens. This change would add another step to the start, thus changing the process to one of: working with manual labor; then upgrading to mechanized improvements; and later to work in the cities.

Can you explain again? I didn't quite understand from a gameplay point of view. How should it look?

 

[[Y]]

Can you explain again? I didn't quite understand from a gameplay point of view. How should it look?

Early game, when a worker is on a tile, there won't be any improvements available. Instead, there might be a "mine" action, or a "farm" action, which would provide the nearest city with an extra or that turn. So as long as you keep that worker active on that tile, you'll get a boost. But once the worker is moved, or is given a different action, you no longer get the bonus.

Proper improvements can come at a later time.

This would put a greater focus on having more workers early game, as well as invading neighboring cultures to try and steal their workers, etc. It also means that actual improvements wouldn't start showing until a later time, late classical/early medieval probably, depending on the improvement.

Edit: Heh, I guess the regular smilies weren't incorporated into the new forum yet.

 

[civcivcivcivciv]

how can i play america civ ?

in the world builder i added america civ

but i can't play it ?

 

[Enyavar]

Early game, when a worker is on a tile, there won't be any improvements available. [...]

An interesting idea, though it's a very serious change in the gameplay! It'd need different workers (cheaper and not possible to upgrade), because classical civs are going to have 20-40 workers all the time. The change could be made around the start of the medieval time with the switch from slavery to serfdom, I guess. Slaves and your "manual/early workers" can work in the woods/jungle like with the slash'n'burn farm, they can work in hills (forested or not) like a very early mine, and on flatlands and pastures like a (slave) farm/pasture.

------

Okay, some other thing I pondered about. Like you devs, I'm a bit unhappy with the extremely fast progress in my science once I have reached a critical threshold. Al of a sudden in industrial age, I always need to lower the slider so that the research is slowed down and I can actually benefit from the techs I developed. That is usually a point were I have become tech leader, too, so it doesn't hurt to slow down.

So, you introduced a per-city malus to both make civs not overextend and to slow research down for the major forces...

That's Civ V philosophy where science is earned by population. In Civ IV, science is earned by commerce (and in R:I, great scientist farms play a much larger role, too). Your solution is contrary to the game philosophy. This also might be a disadvantage to AI players who have for whatever reason many cities but little commerce. (I don't play the SVN test versions, though, so I might not know what I'm talking about.)

My idea is (speaking only with R:I v.3.3 experience) to just restrict commerce a bit more. Once in industrial age, I always get to be insanely rich from the huge amounts of commerce. Here are some figures from the financial adviser tab, copied from a recent game that I played to a Diplo Win. [WT=Commerce generated from Worked Tiles. FT = Commerce generated through "Foreign" Trade.]
YYYY | WT | FT | Building commerce
500 AD | 194 | 58 | 36 (my early core empire)
1200 AD | 429 | 139 | 119 (having captured three vassals and assimilated three smaller "cores", still in Guild Monopoly)
1400 AD | 546 | 156 | 175 (short-time protectionism massively hindering trade)
1500 AD | 598 | 548 | 311 (a noteworthy turnaround: Introduced Free Trade and building up steam)
1600 AD | 735 | 849 | 463 (claimed my portion in the new world)
1700 AD | 934 | 1664 | 768 (now stopping expansion and closing my borders)
1790 AD | 1034 | 2821 | 1363 (Just before finishing my first airports)
1805 AD | 1157 | 3975 | 1719 (Airports built in each city now)
1825 AD | 1317 | 5741 | 4061 (Seaside=Big Cash Cow. Note also the Trade route+1 through UN.)
1827 AD | 1316 | 3125| 2641 (Switched from Free Trade to Planned Economy)

The key point here I'm pounding on is trade-commerce: "Free Trade" gives me +2 trade routes AND 50% improvement for all routes. It doesn't matter if I actually trade with my rivals! In fact, the stronger my own economy gradually became because of free trade, the less I traded with my rivals, until there were only very few "real foreign trade" hubs. In my case, I just closed all borders around the year 1700, "free-trading" only inside my own empire. You can easily see: More than half of my income is generated by trade alone: Each city has 4 (!) starter trade routes, +Riverports+Harbors+IslamicCommunities+Railway stations --> roughly 7-8 trade routes per city. If I disable Free Trade, I'm looking at losing 25% of my income (P.S.: Added the 1827 entry: it's 36% loss!).

In my opinion you don't need to do that science malus with just a few other tweaks:
- Nerf free trade by enforcing "foreign trade routes": +50% only on those foreign ones, and the additional +2 may only go to rivals or vassals. Thus, you only profit from Free Trade if you're really trading a lot with them, no benefits if your borders are closed.
- Buff Protectionism: no trade route penalty in each city; instead just disable all foreign trade in all cities that don't have an import tariffs (which wasn't worth building anyway). After all, protectionism is all about internally strengthen your own economy, not knowingly crippling further.
- In each age (classical/medieval/renaissance/information/future): Also increase maintenance!!! [In all my cities, I built sun god communities, major's offices and courthouses: I could actually laugh about maintenance costs while ruling 40% of the world.] Just by increasing maintenance in each age, you'll force large players to lower the science slider and worry about generating income.
- Nerf the Seaside Resort, big time. +30% really makes a difference. I installed them in all elegible cities, and with most of my commerce-heavy cities at sunny beaches: BAM, +2000 commerce for cheap. Also, why not allowing for a "Ski Resort", for all cities that are built right next to a mountain? This can make a difference especially for players in the north or far from the sea. And for cities with 4+ forest preservations/hot baths: "Nature Resorts".

That said: I'm also really curious how 3.4 will turn out. Even with that per-city malus in science.

 

[Bril]

When is 3.4?

 

[Shuikkanen]

Since you can now only have one Academy at the time, it might be prudent to make them impossible to get by conquest. If you already have one, you can't; but if you haven't built yours yet, it's possible to gain one by capturing a city, which is not necessarily good news anymore, since you can no longer build one in your main science city.

Granted, making this change would mean that upon capture the academy is lost for good and needs to be rebuilt even if the city is later recaptured, which is a problem mostly for AI.

When is 3.4?

Speaking from past experience, the developers tend to announce it when it's available, not a day before. And the average is something like one release per year, or even fewer, so don't hold your breath. If I had to guess, I'd say Christmas. (But which Christmas...?)

 

[SR-71]

Hi! I have completed a World Map game in 5025 (well I've won already but still I'm playing...) and must point these bugs/issues:

- The techs are 100 years late. It's 2012 and world techs are from 1914. When the game finished in 2002 techs were yet more backwards... I think the large empire malus and more advanced techs costs should be tweaked. I'll suggest to extend the gameplaying time also, finishing in 2002 seems a bit ridiculous with all techs available, even tweaking them. It's impossible to complete the tech tree in a game
- Some cost increasing by number of units should be revised. In hussars, for example, the total cost doesn't match with the number of units, it's doubled (i had two units only and cost was 60% instead of 15*2=30% ). Same for conscripts (i have 50 and increase is 300% instead of 3*50=150%) Also in some unknown moment o the game, the cost increase for Trench infantry disappeared, now is less than 0 and I can build 10 in a row... Other units seem right, but I didn't review one by one
- Units in some coastal cities remain with the "Shore bombardment" detriment even if there are no enemy ships, or in presence of my own ships
- In relations with other factions, I have lots of "-x Our close borders spark tensions" even if I have an Open borders treaty with them. I remember this issue from lots of revs before, so it's not even considered
- Vassalization it's too easy and a bit game breaking. It has no sense to achieve vassalization if the enemy has as 28 cities and you 56 as an example. The AI just surrender too early for me and to other AI
- And as a simple suggest, I'd improve the advance rate of minor civs a bit, in very advanced game they are too primitive so they are not a simple challenge

These are which I've encountered. I'll continue gaming the same rev a bit more, because don't see any reference to those issues in new SVN. Thanks meanwhile for your work

Regards

 

[Shuikkanen]

Hi! I have completed a World Map game in 5025 (well I've won already but still I'm playing...) and must point these bugs/issues:
- In relations with other factions, I have lots of "-x Our close borders spark tensions" even if I have an Open borders treaty with them. I remember this issue from lots of revs before, so it's not even considered

Close (as in near) borders, not closed borders. That is, your culture is pushing on their territory. Whether the borders are open or not is irrelevant.

- Vassalization it's too easy and a bit game breaking. It has no sense to achieve vassalization if the enemy has as 28 cities and you 56 as an example. The AI just surrender too early for me and to other AI

Vassalization is nearly broken even on ordinary maps, in world map it's really wiser to keep it turned off. In fact, I thought it was that by default.

 

[Walter Hawkwood]

Still, why archers? This explains that a city can have a defence bonus but doesn't explain why archery units have an innate bonus in any city.

Civilopedia units' strategy entries before renaissance.

Thanks for those! They went in. As for archers, I guess that's because they have a ranged weapon, unlike other units, so they benefit from difficult terrains more - and a city is definitely difficult terrain, especially an ancient one. Remember that our modern cities were often designed with that already in mind - for example, Haussmann's re-planning of Paris with broad straight streets was very explicitly aimed at lowering this effect - in case of riots, these straight wide streets are much easier to clear.

I know things are very well entrenched in SVN, but have you guys ever considered switching to Git and hosting the code on Github.com? This would allow people to make change requests directly, and all you would have to do is view the changes and approve/deny/request modifications. There might also be tools/sites to do this with SVN, though my understanding is that SVN doesn't support this style of collaboration all too well.

I'm sad to admit it, but it is probably too late. With Civ VI coming out, our mod's life cycle is more or less at an end. The next major version will probably be the last, so switching now is kind of pointless.

Had a thought today. What if improvements weren't part of the early game, and instead tiles were required to be worked by units to yield extra bonuses? Imagine the wood chopping mechanic, except it would only take 1 turn to complete, yield a very small bonus (exact nature depending on tile), and not alter the tile being worked. This would prevent ancient/classical improvement massing, tone down the early game improvement bonuses, and put a focus on having units work the land. It would probably require some Python/C programming, but the wood chopping element means the core tools already exist.

I mention putting a focus on "working the land" as it ties into a later theme of the game: moving from using improvements to using citizens. This change would add another step to the start, thus changing the process to one of: working with manual labor; then upgrading to mechanized improvements; and later to work in the cities.

I believe that would just rape the AI, even if we implemented it. That is such a capital change, it would probably get us close to a year to implement just it.

Wow, I lost so many articles, and there are several wrong pronouns
I don't think that medieval swordsman has high power when it becomes available. Unlike the regular swordsman I wouldn't suggest to build it for raw power. And what about the Great Bombard? Why does it have 50% city attack bonus when it can't attack? Btw, barbarian's primitive ram can bombard city defences faster than the regular one: 8% compared to 6%. Why is it primitive then?

I guess because of condescension "civilized" peoples feel towards "barbarians".

As for Great Bombard, I think it's a leftover from the time it could attack. I'll fix that one.

how can i play america civ ?

in the world builder i added america civ

but i can't play it ?

You added it where? Could you please describe your actions in more detail?

Okay, some other thing I pondered about. Like you devs, I'm a bit unhappy with the extremely fast progress in my science once I have reached a critical threshold. Al of a sudden in industrial age, I always need to lower the slider so that the research is slowed down and I can actually benefit from the techs I developed. That is usually a point were I have become tech leader, too, so it doesn't hurt to slow down.

So, you introduced a per-city malus to both make civs not overextend and to slow research down for the major forces...

That's Civ V philosophy where science is earned by population. In Civ IV, science is earned by commerce (and in R:I, great scientist farms play a much larger role, too). Your solution is contrary to the game philosophy. This also might be a disadvantage to AI players who have for whatever reason many cities but little commerce. (I don't play the SVN test versions, though, so I might not know what I'm talking about.)

My idea is (speaking only with R:I v.3.3 experience) to just restrict commerce a bit more. Once in industrial age, I always get to be insanely rich from the huge amounts of commerce. Here are some figures from the financial adviser tab, copied from a recent game that I played to a Diplo Win. [WT=Commerce generated from Worked Tiles. FT = Commerce generated through "Foreign" Trade.]
YYYY | WT | FT | Building commerce
500 AD | 194 | 58 | 36 (my early core empire)
1200 AD | 429 | 139 | 119 (having captured three vassals and assimilated three smaller "cores", still in Guild Monopoly)
1400 AD | 546 | 156 | 175 (short-time protectionism massively hindering trade)
1500 AD | 598 | 548 | 311 (a noteworthy turnaround: Introduced Free Trade and building up steam)
1600 AD | 735 | 849 | 463 (claimed my portion in the new world)
1700 AD | 934 | 1664 | 768 (now stopping expansion and closing my borders)
1790 AD | 1034 | 2821 | 1363 (Just before finishing my first airports)
1805 AD | 1157 | 3975 | 1719 (Airports built in each city now)
1825 AD | 1317 | 5741 | 4061 (Seaside=Big Cash Cow. Note also the Trade route+1 through UN.)
1827 AD | 1316 | 3125| 2641 (Switched from Free Trade to Planned Economy)

The key point here I'm pounding on is trade-commerce: "Free Trade" gives me +2 trade routes AND 50% improvement for all routes. It doesn't matter if I actually trade with my rivals! In fact, the stronger my own economy gradually became because of free trade, the less I traded with my rivals, until there were only very few "real foreign trade" hubs. In my case, I just closed all borders around the year 1700, "free-trading" only inside my own empire. You can easily see: More than half of my income is generated by trade alone: Each city has 4 (!) starter trade routes, +Riverports+Harbors+IslamicCommunities+Railway stations --> roughly 7-8 trade routes per city. If I disable Free Trade, I'm looking at losing 25% of my income (P.S.: Added the 1827 entry: it's 36% loss!).

In my opinion you don't need to do that science malus with just a few other tweaks:
- Nerf free trade by enforcing "foreign trade routes": +50% only on those foreign ones, and the additional +2 may only go to rivals or vassals. Thus, you only profit from Free Trade if you're really trading a lot with them, no benefits if your borders are closed.
- Buff Protectionism: no trade route penalty in each city; instead just disable all foreign trade in all cities that don't have an import tariffs (which wasn't worth building anyway). After all, protectionism is all about internally strengthen your own economy, not knowingly crippling further.
- In each age (classical/medieval/renaissance/information/future): Also increase maintenance!!! [In all my cities, I built sun god communities, major's offices and courthouses: I could actually laugh about maintenance costs while ruling 40% of the world.] Just by increasing maintenance in each age, you'll force large players to lower the science slider and worry about generating income.
- Nerf the Seaside Resort, big time. +30% really makes a difference. I installed them in all elegible cities, and with most of my commerce-heavy cities at sunny beaches: BAM, +2000 commerce for cheap. Also, why not allowing for a "Ski Resort", for all cities that are built right next to a mountain? This can make a difference especially for players in the north or far from the sea. And for cities with 4+ forest preservations/hot baths: "Nature Resorts".

Thanks for the statistics! That will come in very handy for balancing. As for the tech malus, don't kick it before you try it. In the test games, it turns out quite nicely - its design is not to punish expansion (as expansion still has too many benefits to counter that), but rather to give smaller civ a chance to keep up in tech with larger ones. Overall, it leads to more competition and doesn't feel bad or restraining, at least to me (I've yet to hear any SVN player who actually dislikes how it turned out).

Since you can now only have one Academy at the time, it might be prudent to make them impossible to get by conquest. If you already have one, you can't; but if you haven't built yours yet, it's possible to gain one by capturing a city, which is not necessarily good news anymore, since you can no longer build one in your main science city.

Granted, making this change would mean that upon capture the academy is lost for good and needs to be rebuilt even if the city is later recaptured, which is a problem mostly for AI.

Thanks! Both the academies and the art eras were not intended to be capturable.

Hi! I have completed a World Map game in 5025 (well I've won already but still I'm playing...) and must point these bugs/issues:

- The techs are 100 years late. It's 2012 and world techs are from 1914. When the game finished in 2002 techs were yet more backwards... I think the large empire malus and more advanced techs costs should be tweaked. I'll suggest to extend the gameplaying time also, finishing in 2002 seems a bit ridiculous with all techs available, even tweaking them. It's impossible to complete the tech tree in a game

Current SVN tech speeds on certain map sizes might be a bit too slow, yeah. I will wait for some more feedback and do my own tests before I touch anything though.

- Some cost increasing by number of units should be revised. In hussars, for example, the total cost doesn't match with the number of units, it's doubled (i had two units only and cost was 60% instead of 15*2=30% ). Same for conscripts (i have 50 and increase is 300% instead of 3*50=150%) Also in some unknown moment o the game, the cost increase for Trench infantry disappeared, now is less than 0 and I can build 10 in a row... Other units seem right, but I didn't review one by one

The cost increase listed is per role. Hussar has two roles each with +15% increase, so +30% per unit. The disappearing increase is worrisome, though, and if you could provide saves (with revision) and logs, it would be much appreciated. Hopefully, you didn't update SVN in the middle of a game?

- Units in some coastal cities remain with the "Shore bombardment" detriment even if there are no enemy ships, or in presence of my own ships

Haven't seen that happen or reported yet. Again, more feedback is welcome.

- In relations with other factions, I have lots of "-x Our close borders spark tensions" even if I have an Open borders treaty with them. I remember this issue from lots of revs before, so it's not even considered

I am failing to understand what's the issue here. Why should border tension malus disappear with open borders? Cultural pressure remains the same.

- Vassalization it's too easy and a bit game breaking. It has no sense to achieve vassalization if the enemy has as 28 cities and you 56 as an example. The AI just surrender too early for me and to other AI

We didn't really change much here. If you don't like it, fortunately you can simply turn it off, as many people do.

- And as a simple suggest, I'd improve the advance rate of minor civs a bit, in very advanced game they are too primitive so they are not a simple challenge

Some of them are specifically designed to be low-tech and easily conquered, like New World tribes and Aborigines. That's basically how you expand when you reach colonial stage.

 

[SR-71]

Close (as in near) borders, not closed borders. That is, your culture is pushing on their territory. Whether the borders are open or not is irrelevant.

Vassalization is nearly broken even on ordinary maps, in world map it's really wiser to keep it turned off. In fact, I thought it was that by default.

Ah perfect. An English translation issue for me... Close-closed... Much better

About the vassalization i always turn it off, but is there any way to change this option in the World Map Scenario? I didn't see it