SGOTM 07 - Murky Waters

[AlanH]

Welcome to your C_IV SGOTM 7 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The team lists are at the end of this post.

The Game
You are Qin Shi Huang, the great Chinese leader. You find yourself on a tiny world, surrounded by all the other vanilla civs. You can only build or own a single city, and the difficulty level is .... Deity!

The Objective
This Deity OCC game is on a Tiny map, at Normal speed, against 17 rivals. All victory conditions are enabled, and the laurels for this contest will be awarded to the teams who achieve the earliest victory date in the game.

Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV version 1.74, and using the latest vanilla HOF Mod.

Windows players need the HOF Mod at: HOF-1.74.002.
Windows players who have not installed BtS 3.13 will need to swap their vanilla CvGameCoreDLL.dll file so that their Civ4 installation is compatible with copies that have the BtS installation. Download the new DLL zip file here. The enclosed Readme file gives details for the installation.

Mac players are in a separate team as the HoF Mod cannot be made to work cross-platform. They will use Civ4 for Mac version 1.74, and HOF-Mac-1.74.002.

Schedule
Start files for each team will be available on the SGOTM Progress and Results Page at midnight, server local time, at the start of April 24.

Please try to complete this game within three months of the start date.

Starting Position
Here's the starting position - click the image below to see a larger version.

​

Map Parameters

Playable Leader/Civ - Qin Shi Huang of China.
Characteristics - Industrious and Financial, starts with Agriculture and Mining
Unique Unit - Cho-Ku-Nu (Crossbowman)
Rivals - All of them
World size - Tiny
Difficulty - Deity
Landform - Continents
Environment - Temperate climate, low sea level
Game Speed - Normal
AI Aggression - Normal
Barbarians - Normal
Permanent Alliances - Enabled
City Razing - Enabled. China auto-razes to enforce OCC.
​

Notes

• Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
  
• Teams will compete for up to four awards - the Gold, Silver and Bronze Laurels for the fastest finishes, and the Wooden Spoons for the lowest scoring finisher. The laurels will be presented to the three teams who achieve victories in the fewest turns.
  
• All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.
  
• Do NOT view any other team threads until you have submitted your last save - win, lose or retire.
  
• Do NOT download any other team's save.

Enjoy your game, and please be nice to each other

 

[Erkon]

Welcome everyone to

SGOTM7 – Team Murky Waters​

This time around, we shall have more fun, learn even more and perform better than ever! I have a feeling that the diplomatic part of this game will be much more intense than in SGOTM6 . Welcome to FiveAces who has joined us as a regular player and morpheus11 who has joined as an official lurker*. I've adjusted/improved/clarified the house rules a bit (highlighted in blue). You are free/encouraged to comment as usual

The following rules apply to all players in the Murky Waters SGOTM7 team (including morpheus11 when applicable )​

Ensure that you have read and understood the rules below and those provided by the administrators (C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread)** and follow any ongoing discussion at the SGOTM 07 Maintenance Thread

The next player shall post a ”got it” within 48 hours of the upload of the previous game. Else the next available player has the right to post the ”got it”. These rules replaces guideline 6 and 7 in the C-IV SGOTM Reference Thread. To ensure a smooth handover, please post the ”got it” within 36 hours. The rest of the team needs the in between 12 hours to solve who's next. It is mandatory to wait at least 12 hours after the "got it" before you play, and it's recommended to wait at least 24 hours after the ”got it” before you play. Else, the difference in time zones and busy work days may prevent players to post useful advice. If you for some reason have to "unget it", please post within 24 after the "got it" if possible. We aim to play two turn sets / week.

Before you start playing, please post a short plan for your turn set (aka Pre-Play-Plan), including the following topics: builds, military activity per theatre, tile improvements, research, civic switches, diplomatic actions and miscellaneously. Also describe the intent. You don't need to write a novel. A sentence or two for each topic will suffice. This will hopefully enable each player to feel more engagement. It is not intended to replace the incredible amount of interference advice from the rest of us The PPP-template can be found here Something I noticed from last game was that it was hard to keep track of updates/duplicates of the PPP. Please use the same post and mark updates with different color. When you report from a turn set, please use one post (I know - I'm the biggest sinner ). This will make it much easier for me to assemble the event post below.

We will use mid-turnset uploads during intense turn sets. If you are playing while other are online, please upload and the rest of us can review the save (typically an hour review period). In addition/complement to that, a player shall break after move of starting warrior, initial city settlement, writing discovered, alpha discovered, or something really exciting/unexpected happens, such as anyone declares on us . I don't want us to be too strict and pause for minor stuff, because that will have a negative impact on the flow of play for the player. It is important that everyone in the team feels they have the mandate to take decisions when we encounter opportunities without having to ask for advice. One example would be tech trade with AIs that we have agreed on to trade with.

No-one is forced to play a turn set. You don’t need to announce the reason for skipping a turn set. Any players can swap turn sets if they announce the swap in time. Since the captain has a memory capacity of a demented gold fish, I urge you to make it clear when you intend to skip a turn. Please post as quick as possible to reduce unnecessary confusion and delays.

Please use smilies and emotes in your posts as much as possible. Jokes, humor, sarcasm and offensive language can and will be misinterpreted. Remember that written text is a poor method to convey feelings. Several of us are not native to the English language (LC for example use American English). The differences in culture is also a source for misunderstanding. If you get upset by a post, please wait a few hours before you respond. With this in mind I would like to encourage all and everyone to trash talk to your hearts content, particularly when Gnejs (aka Mr UN) screws up.

Don’t be afraid to post things that may appear stupid or evident. Each player have strengths and weaknesses. There are numerous examples in the SGOTM4/5/6 threads when the most simple rule has been unknown to several of us (such as the difference between peace treaty and cease fire). Don’t be afraid that other members will think you are stupid. As a captain, I am obliged to post the most stupid questions to ensure that the rest of the team appear brighter.

Issues where we cannot reach consensus is resolved by the active player. If you run into a situation where you need advice, please upload the save and let the rest of us take a look. Or post a quick request for advice. It’s better to delay the game a day than build the Globe Theatre in the wrong city Don’t be afraid making mistakes though. We all screw up once in a while (some of us more often than others though )

Don’t promote units until they are close to action (unless the promotion increases movement). If you are unsure of suitable promotions, don’t hesitate to bring that up for discussion. We all have very different experiences from promotions, for example barrage/CR for cats, and combat vs other promotions.

Don’t play intoxicated (from alcohol, drugs or smoke). Don’t play when you are too tired. Or when you have your kids/wife screaming at you

Try to keep track of the diplomatic events each turn, and visit each city regularly the capital each turn. It’s mandatory to check cities that grow or have a border expansion. Remember that the number of happy people will change due to changes in war weariness (WW), gained/lost resources etc. Keep track of specialists. We don’t want to unnecessarily pollute the great person pool. Please respect LC’s micro management plans. We brought him to tears last game when we whipped a city on the wrong turn .

Ensure that you have the autosave settings to 1. Please contact AlanH if your game crashes, even if you can repeat all your moves. Read this post for details.

If you PM the team, please ensure everyone one receives a copy. Remember that a lot of players read what we post. Don't be rude or disrespectful to any player not on our team.

Try to run a test game or two before we start. Your experience may either confirm or contradict some one else's, and is therefore valuable.

The goal for Team Murky Waters is to end among the top three teams. The ambition is to grab the silver laurel and the vision is to win defend the gold .

This is the motto of the Captain: "We have an ambition to perform well and of course we want to win the gold laurel. We also want to have fun while playing and we want to learn more. It's more important to me to have fun than win the gold, and I think that it's the same for most players."

If you play with a non-english version of the game (yes, I'm thinking of you jesusin ), please provide a translation to English of the event log.

Don't forget to enable all HOF settings in case you lost them during a dual-install or whatever reason. And set the first-turn-setting to first turn = 0. This will reduce future confusion. EDIT2: Set MaxAutoSaves in CivilizationIV.ini to a value greater than the length of your turn set.

When you state the turn/year research is completed (or any other event), please use the turn/year that is stated by the event log. Research for example is completed at the end of a turn. The pop up thus shows the turn after the tech is learned.

EDIT 1: Make a note of the turn we and another AI start having a common war and note the turn that the AI declares peace, so we can know when we've gotten to 40 turns of common war.

EDIT 3: Especially early on, we need to monitor our neighbors' attitudes about DoWing people and see if it changes to: "We have enough on our hands now." Maybe give us advance notice about needing archery

When the game is over, and the staff has confirmed it's over, you are free to read other team threads. When their game is over, and the staff has confirmed it, you are free to post in their threads as well.

Ok, if you have bothered to read this far, you are eligible to either a) ignore this crap or b) provide valuable comments (please email me at captain.murky_waters@dev.null)

BTW, I am considering to update the motto for this SGOTM to be: "Remember that your turn set is the most important in the game, so don't screw up!". Anyone against?

* An Official Lurker is a team member who is allowed to post in this thread while its progressing and can also download the save, but does not participate in the decisions in the game, and does not play any turn sets. The Official Lurker will therefore not receive any potential laurel or spoon. The same restriction applies to an official lurker as playing members, such as not viewing other teams threads, and not performing irreversible actions in the save. An Official Lurker is encouraged to ask questions when he/she wants to learn about the reasoning of the team, or game rules etc.

** Guidelines 5-7 does not apply to our game. You are free to upload before the end of your last turn. You can "get it" without first opening the save.

 

[Erkon]

Turn Set Summaries, Game Events & Reports

Domination Victory
1170 AD​

Pre-game discussions

Spoiler :

klarius' first attempt to make sense
FiveAces' first attempt to make sense
LC's list of Creative AI
Gnejs' first rant on chopping forests
FiveAces' second attempt to make sense
FiveAces' ideas on early part of game

klarius' tech value chart (vital knowledge to understand our thread in general and specifically tech trade)

4000 BC - 3600 BC - 3200 BC (Gnejs' PPP, page 1-18). Settle in place. Trial games with pyramids gives Communism at 640 AD. We decide to stick to early alpha plan and forfeit the Pyramids, because we prefer to have an early influence on the AI via tech gifting/trading. Meet Asoka, Tokugawa, Washington, Elizabeth, Huyana Capac. Learned Fishing, Hunting and Animal Husbandry.

3200 BC - 2640 BC (LC's PPP, page 18-23). Build scout, meet Isabella, Frederick, and Alexander. Learn Writing.

2640 BC - 2200 BC (FiveAces' PPP, page 23-28). Meet Kublai Khan and Julius Caesar. Build Library and work boat and learn the Alphabet. Trade for Mysticism and The Wheel.

2200 BC - 2160 BC - 1800 BC (jesusin's PPP, page 28-48). After endless discussions we decided to start the Big War with multiple DoWs the same turn, instead of a staggered approach: We, KK, Fred and Alex DoW HC (man, he got a surprise! <grin>), we also DoW Toku. KK captures Tiwanaku. Trade for Masonry, BW, Pottery, IW, Polytheism, Meditation.

1800 BC - 1400 BC (klarius's PPP, page 28-51). Build Great Library. Alex and Fred make peace with HC. Sailing and Drama learned. Merit Ptah (GS) born, Hinduism spread, grow to pop 7.

1400 BC - 1000 BC (Erkon's PPP, page 51-60). Bribe Asoka and Fred on Toku and JC on HC. Revolt to Slavery and Pacifism. Nabu-rimanni (GS aka Erkon the Great) born, grow to pop10. Math, Philosophy (lightbulb), Priesthood learned. Peace with HC since he has units on our doorsteps*. Asoka captures Kyoto.

1000 BC - 750 BC (Gnejs's PPP, page 60-76). Construct Academy. Bribe Fred on HC, Asoka, KK and us on Fred. Capture Fred worker. Build girlie stuff. KK captures Berlin.

750 BC - 500 BC (LC's PPP, page 76-85). Revolt to Bureau + Hereditary Rule. JC captures Cuzco. Zu Chongzhi (GS) born. Civil Service, Construction, Currency, Paper learned. Around this time we decide to complete a build each turn, a divine revelation by LC.**

500 BC - 250 BC (FiveAces' PPP, page 85-109). Izzy DoW us. Spread Hinduism to KK to convert him. KK peace with Fred. We, JC and KK DoW on Alex. Asoka peace with Fred. KK captures Sparta. Metal Casting, Calendar, Archery, Monotheism, Machinery, Compass, Education learned. Build list (nine turns): Forge, Harbor, Heroic Epic, Cat, Cat, Cat, University, Oxford University, Cat

250 BC - 1 AD (jesusin's PPP, page 109-123). Send Caravel to Far Side and meet the Others. We and KK DoW JC. Peace with Fred. Optics, Feudalism, Engineering, Liberalism, Astronomy, Printing Press learned.

1 AD - 250 AD (klarius' PPP, page 123-131). Great Artist born. Revolt to Free Religion. Washington DoW JC, Alex and Isa. Elizabeth DoW JC, Alex and Isa. Oops, we did it again! Theology, Horseback Riding, Music learned. KK captures Antium.

250 AD - 475 AD (Gnejs' PPP, page 131 - 140). We and KK peace with JC. KK DoW Isa. We, Hattie, Mansa DoW Montezuma. Why? Why not?! Washington culture bombs. KK captures Madrid. Scientific Methods and Guilds learned.

475 AD - 640 AD (LC's PPP, page 140 - 155). Short story: We bring Asoka into our war against Fred and Asoka captures Hamburg. LC is full of HATRED. Long story: Permanent Alliance with KK. Peace Monty. Revolt to State Property and Theocracy. Liz captures Cuzco. Liz and W DoP JC. We bring Asoka into our war against Fred and Asoka captures Hamburg. LC is full of HATRED. Communism, Chemistry, Banking learned.

640 AD - 820 AD (FiveAces' PPP, page 156 - 165). Bribe Liz to peace Alex. Bribe Cathy to DoW Hattie. KK captures Athens, Hamburg & Kyoto. Steel learned.

820 AD - 1010 AD (Erkon's PPP, page 165 - 174). DoW Liz. KK captures Bombay, Delhi, York & Cuzco. KK lands 11 units SE of London. Nationalism learned.

1010 AD - 1110 AD (jesusin's PPP, page 174 - 181). DoW Washington. KK captures London, Washington & New York. DoW JC. Biology & Economics learned.

1110 AD - 1170 AD (klarius' PPP, page 182 - 183). Raze Nottingham and Rome. Rifling learned. Everyone DoW Sal. Then win with 41.4% pop (Sal 16.7%) and 51.08% (283 tiles) land. You can't win much closer than that!

klarius korner (not complete and will probably never be...)

Spoiler :

Defenses in AI cities
Relation levels impact on bribing AI to DoW
Value in gold for bribing AI into DoW
Restrictions on AI to DoW
Correction regarding bribe cost (8 adjacent tiles)
The AI is cheating They know where all cities are
What makes AIs go to war?
Further klarifications on relationship effects with AI
Trade with worst enemy
Memory decay or not
Resource trade impact on relations
Tech trade and relations
Monopoly tech value, part I
Forest will not creep on horses
AI will raze overseas cities
AI dog pile, part I
AI preferred city sites
More details about AI relations
HasMetCounter
Random and Varying inter-AI relationships (don't miss this!)

Link to SGOTM6 Summary, including klarius korner 6

Tech progress:

3800 BC - [B]Fishing[/B]
2560 BC - [B]Hunting[/B]
3240 BC - [B]AH[/B]
2880 BC - [B]Writing[/B]
2240 BC - [B]Alpha[/B]
2200 BC - The Wheel
2200 BC - Mysticism
2200 BC - Masonry
2160 BC - BW
2160 BC - Pottery
2120 BC - IW
2000 BC - Polytheism
2000 BC - Meditation
1760 BC - [B]Literature[/B]
1480 BC - Sailing
1440 BC - [B]Drama[/B]
1400 BC - Math
1400 BC - [B]Philosophy[/B] from GS
1280 BC - [B]Priesthood[/B]
 975 BC - [B]Code of Laws[/B]
 850 BC - Monarchy
 725 BC - [B]Civil Service[/B] (partly self learned)
 725 BC - Construction
 700 BC - Currency
 575 BC - [B]Paper[/B]
 500 BC - Metal Casting
 475 BC - Calendar
 475 BC - Archery
 475 BC - Monotheism
 475 BC - Machinery
 475 BC - Compass
 400 BC - [B]Education[/B] (partly bulbed)
 250 BC - Optics
 200 BC - Feudalism
 200 BC - Engineering
 200 BC - [B]Liberalism[/B]
 175 BC - [B]Astronomy[/B]
  25 BC - [B]Printing Press[/B]
   1 AD - Theology
   1 AD - Horseback Riding
 125 AD - Music
 250 AD - [B]Scientific Methods[/B]
 375 AD - Guilds
 500 AD - [B]Communism[/B]
 520 AD - [B]Chemistry[/B] (from PA bug)
 540 AD - Banking
 720 AD - [B]Steel[/B]

* This event lead to us introducing Break Conditions in our PPP, in addition to the previously added Sequence bullet.
** The most important limitation for an OCC game is that you can never produce more than one item per turn, regardless of overflow. We thus sacrificed beakers and food sometime to ensure we always completed the build in one turn, sometimes from chop-whip.

 

[Erkon]

Game Info​

Roster

Gnejs - 15 turns
LC - 12 turns
FiveAces - 10 turns
jesusin - 10 turns
klarius - 10 turns
Mitiu - 10 turns
Erkon - 10 turns

Rules for Permanent Alliance (PA)

Spoiler :

We can have one and only one partner
Neither we nor the partner can break the PA
We tell the partner what the partner shall research
If we DoW, the partner will DoW as well
The relationship from other AI will be the average of said AIs relation to us and out partner
It will take 40 turns of mutual war against a third AI before a PA can be signed
OR
It will take 40 turns of Defensive Pact with an AI before a PA can be signed
OR
Shared war and DP count together, but DP counter is decremented while you are at war, so you can top of shared war by a DP, but not the other way around.
Our GP can be used in the partner cities only by settling them as superspecialists.
(Any other use requieres our gifting the GP and hoping the AI will know what to do with them.)
PA research:

There is only one bucket for tech progress per team per tech. Both PA partners put their beakers into these buckets. That's independent of difficulty level.
If a PA is formed the beaker cost of the techs change (you can see this change in the tech screen). There is a penalty of a factor of 1.5 for 2 partners.
But the difficulty level factor changes to the value of the average of difficulties of the 2 partners :
floor((deity+noble)/2) = monarch.
So in the end we have 1.15*1.5 instead of 1.3 factor.​

Rules of One City Challenge (OOC)

Spoiler :

We can not settle a second city
Any city we capture will be auto-razed
We can build more than two National Wonders in our capital
We can build Globe Theatre, Oxford University and Ironworks in our Capital

Pre-game test-games

Spoiler :

Shannon's 4000 BC save
Gnejs' 4000 BC save
klarius 4000 BC save
klarius pre-PA save - Communism in 450AD and Hatty is ready for PA.
Erkons 4000BC save

Turn vs Date list

Spoiler :

Turn Year
..0 .4000 BC
..1 .3960 BC
..2 .3920 BC
..3 .3880 BC
..4 .3840 BC
..5 .3800 BC
..6 .3760 BC
..7 .3720 BC
..8 .3680 BC
..9 .3640 BC
.10 .3600 BC
.11 .3560 BC
.12 .3520 BC
.13 .3480 BC
.14 .3440 BC
.15 .3400 BC
.16 .3360 BC
.17 .3320 BC
.18 .3280 BC
.19 .3240 BC
.20 .3200 BC
.21 .3160 BC
.22 .3120 BC
.23 .3080 BC
.24 .3040 BC
.25 .3000 BC
.26 .2960 BC
.27 .2920 BC
.28 .2880 BC
.29 .2840 BC
.30 .2800 BC
.31 .2760 BC
.32 .2720 BC
.33 .2680 BC
.34 .2640 BC
.35 .2600 BC
.36 .2560 BC
.37 .2520 BC
.38 .2480 BC
.39 .2440 BC
.40 .2400 BC
.41 .2360 BC
.42 .2320 BC
.43 .2280 BC
.44 .2240 BC
.45 .2200 BC
.46 .2160 BC
.47 .2120 BC
.48 .2080 BC
.49 .2040 BC
.50 .2000 BC
.51 .1960 BC
.52 .1920 BC
.53 .1880 BC
.54 .1840 BC
.55 .1800 BC
.56 .1760 BC
.57 .1720 BC
.58 .1680 BC
.59 .1640 BC
.60 .1600 BC
.61 .1560 BC
.62 .1520 BC
.63 .1480 BC
.64 .1440 BC
.65 .1400 BC
.66 .1360 BC
.67 .1320 BC
.68 .1280 BC
.69 .1240 BC
.70 .1200 BC
.71 .1160 BC
.72 .1120 BC
.73 .1080 BC
.74 .1040 BC
.75 .1000 BC
.76 . 975 BC
.77 . 950 BC
.78 . 925 BC
.79 . 900 BC
.80 . 875 BC
.81 . 850 BC
.82 . 825 BC
.83 . 800 BC
.84 . 775 BC
.85 . 750 BC
.86 . 725 BC
.87 . 700 BC
.88 . 675 BC
.89 . 650 BC
.90 . 625 BC
.91 . 600 BC
.92 . 575 BC
.93 . 550 BC
.94 . 525 BC
.95 . 500 BC
.96 . 475 BC
.97 . 450 BC
.98 . 425 BC
.99 . 400 BC
100 . 375 BC
101 . 350 BC
102 . 325 BC
103 . 300 BC
104 . 275 BC
105 . 250 BC
106 . 225 BC
107 . 200 BC
108 . 175 BC
109 . 150 BC
110 . 125 BC
111 . 100 BC
112 . .75 BC
113 . .50 BC
114 . .25 BC
115 . . 1 AD
116 . .25 AD
117 . .50 AD
118 . .75 AD
119 . 100 AD
120 . 125 AD
121 . 150 AD
122 . 175 AD
123 . 200 AD
124 . 225 AD
125 . 250 AD
126 . 275 AD
127 . 300 AD
128 . 325 AD
129 . 350 AD
130 . 375 AD
131 . 400 AD
132 . 425 AD
133 . 450 AD
134 . 475 AD
135 . 500 AD
136 . 520 AD
137 . 540 AD
138 . 560 AD
139 . 580 AD
140 . 600 AD
141 . 620 AD
142 . 640 AD
143 . 660 AD
144 . 680 AD
145 . 700 AD
146 . 720 AD
147 . 740 AD
148 . 760 AD
149 . 780 AD
150 . 800 AD
151 . 820 AD
152 . 840 AD
153 . 860 AD
154 . 880 AD
155 . 900 AD
156 . 920 AD
157 . 940 AD
158 . 960 AD
159 . 980 AD
160 .1000 AD
161 .1010 AD
162 .1020 AD
163 .1030 AD
164 .1040 AD
165 .1050 AD
166 .1060 AD
167 .1070 AD
168 .1080 AD
169 .1090 AD
170 .1100 AD
171 .1110 AD
172 .1120 AD
173 .1130 AD
174 .1140 AD
175 .1150 AD
176 .1160 AD
177 .1170 AD
178 .1180 AD
179 .1190 AD
180 .1200 AD
181 .1210 AD
182 .1220 AD
183 .1230 AD
184 .1240 AD
185 .1250 AD
186 .1260 AD
187 .1270 AD
188 .1280 AD
189 .1290 AD
190 .1300 AD
191 .1310 AD
192 .1320 AD
193 .1330 AD
194 .1340 AD
195 .1350 AD
196 .1360 AD
197 .1370 AD
198 .1380 AD
199 .1390 AD
200 .1400 AD
201 .1410 AD
202 .1420 AD
203 .1430 AD
204 .1440 AD
205 .1450 AD
206 .1460 AD
207 .1470 AD
208 .1480 AD
209 .1490 AD
210 .1500 AD
211 .1505 AD
212 .1510 AD
213 .1515 AD
214 .1520 AD
215 .1525 AD
216 .1530 AD
217 .1535 AD
218 .1540 AD
219 .1545 AD
220 .1550 AD
221 .1555 AD
222 .1560 AD
223 .1565 AD
224 .1570 AD
225 .1575 AD
226 .1580 AD
227 .1585 AD
228 .1590 AD
229 .1595 AD
230 .1600 AD
231 .1605 AD
232 .1610 AD
233 .1615 AD
234 .1620 AD
235 .1625 AD
236 .1630 AD
237 .1635 AD
238 .1640 AD
239 .1645 AD
240 .1650 AD
241 .1655 AD
242 .1660 AD
243 .1665 AD
244 .1670 AD
245 .1675 AD
246 .1680 AD
247 .1685 AD
248 .1690 AD
249 .1695 AD
250 .1700 AD
251 .1705 AD
252 .1710 AD
253 .1715 AD
254 .1720 AD
255 .1725 AD
256 .1730 AD
257 .1735 AD
258 .1740 AD
259 .1745 AD
260 .1750 AD
261 .1755 AD
262 .1760 AD
263 .1765 AD
264 .1770 AD
265 .1775 AD
266 .1780 AD
267 .1785 AD
268 .1790 AD
269 .1795 AD
270 .1800 AD

 

[Erkon]

Apr 09, 2008, 04:29 PM

Spoiler :

Hey guys!
...
I played ShannonCT's test map up to the Liberalism slingshot. I took Astro but could have taken Nationalism or something else. I'm pm'ing you with the 400ad save because I'm really not sure what to do next. That is, how to go about securing a victory. Diplo? Domination? Conquest? Cultural? All of them may be possible from this point.

Here's my 400ad save. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on how to proceed. Here are my thoughts (don't look if you're still planning to try his test map):

Spoiler :

Some details:
* This is the first point in the entire game that I've been able to bribe Kubla to DoW Hatty, though they've been hating on each other for a long time. This may also be the last time, because Kubla's up to cautious with her and rising it seems.
* Some time ago Peter was listed as the most advanced in the world. Some unknown AIs were 2nd, 4th, and 7th, or something like that.
* I'm thinking one route would be to go for domination. Research Grenadiers next, plan to PA with Kubla and help him take the whole continent. One question is, would he just raze cities?
* Another route would be some diplomatic solution. I'm currently on a beeline for Mass Media. The question is how to get enough votes? Maybe beeline MM and when we trade for Chemsitry, start eliminating AIs on the other continent to increase the power of our votes on this continent.
* Cultural? I guess there will be some AI on the other continent who is a couple of cities moving toward legendary. Get a PA with that guy? (I've never done this and I'm skeptical.)

LC

Apr 09, 2008, 06:40 PM

Spoiler :

Hey all,
...
I played a test map of my own last night and got a Domination victory around 1950 AD. I could actually pick my victory condition, me and my ally had one SS part left to build, there were 3 AIs left of which only one had more than 2 cities, and we had the majority of UN votes...

LC, you should beeline to Communism and get a PA with the strongest AI. From that point on you can just sit back and relax. The fun part is that you can start any war you want, including against your partners best friends, and he/she will obediently roll their Modern Armors any direction you point.

/Gnejs

Apr 10, 2008, 07:05 AM

Spoiler :

... I'll make a couple observations based on some test games I've played with the same settings (different maps, but similar resources to what I think we'll find when we move the warrior) as food for thought:

1) I don't think cultural is a realistic VC for this one, though I'll let jesusin give the final word on that .
2) I can get MM 1300-1500AD without much difficulty
3) I won space before 1900AD with a late PA
4) I don't like the randomness of what happens on the other continent before you make contact
5) I'm avoiding (or managing) a DOW with only minor efforts (that has been the biggest surprise so far)

Apr 10, 2008, 07:31 AM

Spoiler :

Culture is a very realistic VC. Please read Minor32 thread

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=254130

I won my first try on 1822AD. And it was only Noble AI.
Anyway, even if we don't go after culture, we should all re-read the links in that thread, explaining the inner workings of PA.

jesusin

Apr 10, 2008, 07:48 AM

Spoiler :

I know, I played that one. I got 6th . My concern is that since we're not philo and it's deity AI, we'll get launched on first. Why don't you try a couple test games to see if this is likely?

Apr 10, 2008, 12:36 PM

Spoiler :

400ad save attempt number two

I don't think this save is pre-1500ad to MM though. Is going for the GLib slowing me down? 1300-1500ad for MM sounds pretty good, but can we get a diplomatic victory? That seems realy tricky, not knowing half the AIs until optics, unless we warmonger them down to size.

...

In addition to what FiveAces has listed, my thoughts so far:
- If we're going to beeline Communism, then the sooner we get common war turns with our potential permanent allies the better (but not before we're able to manage it obviously).
- Getting to know all the AI in our hemisphere is useful not only for trading but also for knowing who's warring with whom. (In my save above, I think Peter is warring with Monty, but I can't join the fun, not knowing Monty yet...)

LC

Apr 10, 2008, 01:19 PM

Spoiler :

Yes, I never build GL when going for an OCC diplo victory. I always go from writing straight through to MM, only researching philo on the side if I can't trade for it (and lib, of course). The goal is to get Oxford built asap. So by the time the AI has Lit it's too late to get GL up (along with everything else I need in place by then) before I get edu.

After hunting (I assume), have you tried beelining writing through PH and building Oracle for either alpha, CoL, or CS slingshot? We don't need early pottery or AH with that map, we're ind and there's marble. Just a thought .

Note my test games are with a land food and 1 gold/gems in BFC (and no marble). I'm assuming there's a reason we're starting with ag/min that's not apparent in the visible tiles. Plus there's got to be a food reason for that 2nd blue circle.

You are correct getting the votes for diplo VC is going to be hard with all the AI in play. It will be much easier though if Gyanthaar put all the US, maybe even the HR-loving ones on our starting continent. Can't know that until we start playing though. But I have the feeling most of the peaceful ones are on our continent to give everyone a decent shot at getting a win. And a lot of the peaceful ones like US. Just a guess though.

Speaking of getting in to Gyanthaar's head, is there any way we can ask Alan to move the warrior 1SW and make that the starting file so we can figure out where we're going to settle without having to wait to open the save? I can't imagine any team making a different initial move, so I don't think anyone would be upset. Might not be SGOTM kosher though.

Not that I'm in a hurry or anything...

Oh yeah - one more thing - knowing all the AI's on your continent early has a drawback. It's like in AW - if they don't know you, they can't DOW on you. LC, are you sure you want Monty to know you exist right now?

Apr 10, 2008, 02:35 PM

Spoiler :

A diplo victory looks very tricky. I didn't manage to pull it off even when close to the domination threshold.

This is how I played that that map:

Spoiler :

Research path:
Masonry
Fishing
Wheel
BW
Pottery
Writing
Hunting
Archery <--- Detour just in case, probably cost me the HG...
Maths
Alpha 1120 BC
(Trade for sailing, myst, med, poly, priesthood)
Lit
CoL
CS
Philosophy
Paper
Edu
Liberalism 620 AD
...
Communism 1300 AD
...
Mass Media 1650 AD

Wonders:
Pyramids 2200 BC
Missed Hanging Gardens by a few turns 975 BC, should have chopped much more than I did.
Great Library 700 BC
NE
Angkor Wat 125 AD - not of much use
Oxford around 600 AD

PA with Peter around 1600 AD
Domination win by claiming the whole of starting continent by 1854 AD

I am pretty sure that this can be improved considerably by beelining Communism and setting up an ally better in advance, and also by going on the warpath as soon as the PA is in (I let Peter handle it all by himself, I think I built 10 units in the whole game...). I had Peter at +8-9 and pleased since the BCs but one single "you refused to help us" haunted me for a long time. It took three common wars to finally convince him.

Apr 10, 2008, 03:12 PM

Spoiler :

You can't (unless you are very very lucky) win diplo once you have a PA because the other AI then also take their relations with your partner into account and unless they love both of you they won't vote.

SGOTM3 was a diplo/space game with 17 rivals, and multiple teams managed to win diplo (although it wasn't OCC, so self-voting might have been the reason, it would be interesting if any team had sufficient # of civs voting for them that they could have won on OCC).

I agree diplo will be hard, but with the OCC limitation, my initial thought is that diplo is going to be the fastest possible VC to achieve, assuming you can get the votes.

Also if the starting continent in the real game isn't big enough for dom, it pretty much rules conq and dom out. I guess we need to find that out asap.

Apr 10, 2008, 03:20 PM

Spoiler :

With so many civs in the game the dom limits will be much lower than usual, around 50% for both pop and land. This might well be comparable in speed to a diplo win, and much safer.

Apr 10, 2008, 11:03 PM

Spoiler :

Interesting.

I haven't tried the Oracle yet, but I've been playing with the resources as seen, plus iron. I'm curious how your Oxford bee-line compares to a bee-line that goes:

fishing+hunting>...pottery>...alpha>research or trade poly>lit(GLib + Nat'l Epic)>CoL>Philo/Pacifism(GS)>...Oxford

Pros:
+ 3 cottages (or more)
+ 27 per turn excluding hired scientists
+ no GProph
+ trade for BW, IW, math, other techs sooner
+ can use trading to improve AI attitudes sooner

Cons:
- 2 forests for GLib = -1
- 17-25% chance for GA (can be used for Radio or golden age). Alternatively, could skip Nat'l Epic.
- wasted on poly, alpha, literature

Gyathaar is very deliberate. The warrior is exactly where he wants it to be. For sure.

On knowing AIs: You're right. No hurry to know warmongers before we want to start collecting common war turns, if at all. But there are some other benefits, such as not accidentally getting a -4 traded with our worst enemy with a future ally and getting up to Friendly asap with trading partners (critical for deity WFYABTA). I have been holding off on OBs until I knew which religious group I preferred and then OBs with them to get that religion to spread, so I could declare and get up to Friendly rapidly.

Apr 10, 2008, 11:41 PM

Spoiler :

Do you intend to skip the Pyramids?

I have seen the Oracle go 2400 BC, maybe even earlier. Seems like an unnecessary beeline that won't pay for itself.


Ok, made a re-run again, got Liberalism 500 AD - intentionally delayed so I could pop Astronomy. Communism 800 AD. Unfortunately I forgot (twice!) to join the wars I instigated so the PA was delayed until 1300 AD. Domination victory 1665 AD.
In principle we should be able to get the PA around 1000 AD or even earlier, and a domination pre-1500 AD should be within reach.

Apr 11, 2008, 12:01 AM

Spoiler :

I saw the Pyramids go pre 2600bc once . Have you been buiding them?

Apr 11, 2008, 12:29 AM

Spoiler :

2600!

On the current map we can get them 2200 BC by going worker-wb-wb-Pyramids. Probably earlier but I have prioritized growth over production and haven't chopped more than one or two forests.

I think it is worth a try. We are looking at 16 turns of production at size 4 without any chops, each chop brings it down by ~2 turns. There is not much useful to build at that stage anyway, and the forests need to go for cottages sooner or later.

Apr 11, 2008, 12:39 AM

Spoiler :

Finally figured out how to link to my save, I think (not that anyone cares):

View attachment 173885

Apr 11, 2008, 01:06 AM

Spoiler :

Okay, I remembered wrong. Only 2520 bc.
View attachment 173888

Bismarck, industrious, had stone in capital FC. This is his second city:
View attachment 173889

Apr 11, 2008, 09:19 AM

Spoiler :

...
Where can the 4000BC save be found, please?

It's here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=6695085&postcount=1517

Apr 12, 2008, 09:55 AM

Spoiler :

first 5 tries, with and without marble, I never got oracle. interestingly i built it the fastest without marble, in 2400bc. missed by 1 turn. So I've abandoned oracle and gone back to my default deity OCC research path for this map - hunting-fishing-AH-writing-alpha-myst-med-ph-CoL-CS-paper-edu-philo-lib

AH because it's faster than wheel+pottery. GL is worth discussing since it will likely enable the 2nd GS in time to buld edu.

I am delaying OB as well, picking only 1 for a trade route/rel until I know what the state of play is.

Apr 12, 2008, 01:02 PM

Spoiler :

I'm building both the Pyramids and the GL, but more importantly I am settling all Great People. I guess that in your and LC's games you are relying on bulbs? Difficult to say which is best. Your way gets us Liberalism faster, my way gives a big boost to our raw science and production. I am sure that settling the GPs is better if we are going for a spaceship, but I am not so sure anymore about a domination. The possible finish date is now much earlier than what I first realized.

In my 1665 game I built one axe, two maces, one grenadier, and then spammed one Infantry per turn once we got to that stage. Good relations and a healthy tech lead is the best defense as it lets me bribe some AIs to help me if I am attacked. I tried to bring up a mace to 10 XP for the Heroic Epic but it was quite difficult to pick any good targets among the myriads of AI vs AI combats going on.

Apr 12, 2008, 01:27 PM

Spoiler :

I still had a couple of forests in my BFC at the end of the game, so I should probably have chopped more than I did. Health is not that big an issue, with the PA we will get lots of health resources and Biology/Medicine comes pretty soon also. I got Medicine 1300 AD, and switched to Environmentalism and built a Hospital for a total of +9 health.

Btw, here is a screenie from my end of game, showing the boost from my 3 settled scientists and 5 settled engineers.

View attachment 174024

Apr 12, 2008, 02:03 PM

Spoiler :

Nope. I'm using the first for an academy. +50% sci is huge on OCC - it's 50% of your total, not just your best sci city, and we'll be in beauro, so it's 50% sci on top of 50% commerce. That's partly why I'm not liking the pyramids - late library = late academy = lots of lost early beakers. I can get lib by 350AD on the ShannonCT map with only the 1 GS for the academy. Agree if we're going for space we should settle the rest.

For dom I'm inclined to go academy, and try to bulb edu for Oxford for quicker comm/PA. I've not had difficulty with the AI getting Optics by the time I get Lib.

I'm guessing artillery are better than infantry. They can get CR they give collateral damage, and IIRC it's cheaper than assembly line. Plus in my game the AI had artillery (but not AL) by the time I made the PA, since they love getting rocketry asap. So I think we'll be facing rifles for a while - that's plenty of time to get artillery exp for CR3 by the time AI have inf.

What if there aren't enough tiles on the home continent for dom?

I got my lvl4 (and 5) grenedier while defending my city from 4 AI's at once. I sure don't recommend that strategy though

Apr 12, 2008, 02:51 PM

Spoiler :

Yeah, of course the first GS goes into an academy. I get writing on the same turn as I complete the Pyramids (2200 BC), then I build/chop a library and run 2 scientists until the first GS pops (though in my game I got two engineers first, and the GS for an academy only 400 BC... the two engineers each provided 3 hammers and 6 beakers when settled so it isn't a disaster)

When going for domination the tech choices are more determined by what the partner AI already has. If they have 50+ rifles and 15 cannons it is much better to let them upgrade the rifles than the cannons.

In my 1660 domination game the most advanced units we faced were Rifles, Grenadiers, and Cannons, just very many of them. I kept all other AIs on my continent pretty backwards by instigating a lot of AI-vs-AI wars where they pillaged each others lands.

If our continent isn't big enough we simply make an ally on the other continent instead. Easy, isn't it?

The limiting factor for a PA so far in my games has not been research but the 40 turns of common war/DP. This is why I don't think we actually need to rush to Liberalism/Communism.

Apr 12, 2008, 03:44 PM

Spoiler :

Fruitful discussion so far. Obviously, a lot of this depends on our full FC, our hemisphere, and our neighbors. Here is a list of the contingencies I've noticed so far:

Fat Cross:
- How many health points will we have in our extended FC? (may limit our early chopping)
- Will we have gems? (maybe don't need cottages)
- Will we have another food resource? (makes pyramids far more useful)

Hemisphere:
- Can we go for domination with our hemisphere? If not, do we target Optics earlier?

Neighbors:
- Are they peaceful?
- How much will they trade?
- How many do we know by Alpha?
- Do they research faster than the other hemisphere?
- Are they split into 2 or more religious groups?
- How many techs will we need to bribe them to DoW?
- How fast can we get them to Friendly?

Tech path:
- Do we trade Alpha asap to speed up AI->our research or keep it so we can bribe DoW sooner? (This may answer Gnejs' concern with 40-turn common war in time for Communism.)
- What's the optimum bee-line to Communism (if we decide on that)?
- How can we optimize our bee-line and forging an early DoW bribery? (Example: I'm thinking that as soon as we can pick a possible PA partner, we DON'T necessarily trade with him, but rather manipulate the trade situation so we collect enough techs bribe him to war. If Gnejs is right that we go too fast to COmmunism, we might even sidetrack to get drama or something so we can start our war sooner.)

That's all I can remember right now.

Apr 12, 2008, 08:13 PM

Spoiler :

I've played the Shannon game for culture. Won in 1939AD. It is the best situation possible for culture:
1 single religious block and I am not infected, all the crazy guys in this continent, the best PA peaceful partners (Musa and Gnadhi) in the other continent.

Fishing-Wheel-Pott-Wri-Alpha-Lite-CS-Liber-MilTra-Comm
Library-Academy-Parthenon

Survived the wars easily, losing only some cottages. Communism 1400AD. Two options here, immediate PA with Spain, with only 3 cities but 3 religions (what I did) or wait for the rest of the 40t DP to PA with France (6cities, 2 religions, will explore this possibility later).

PA 1400AD, I had only 6 GA then, which I added to the target cities of Isabel. I got another 8GA, with diminishing returns when added.

Risked to built UN, but never could pass FS, they were all too small. And was forced into Emanc at the end. Musa and Roos signed a PA too, but they were far from winning.

Will add more info when I try the other PA.

 

[Erkon]

Apr 12, 2008, 08:55 PM

Spoiler :

Thanks to the guidance from LC, these attachments should actually work now: (blame LC, not me, if they don't )

Screenshot of settled specialists:
View attachment 174067

Gnejs' test map:
View attachment 174068

Apr 12, 2008, 10:26 PM

Spoiler :

Well, I also did also a few tests.
My map.
The map is designed for low risk of war early (though I anyway got killed once by Hatty!?! around 2000BC - maybe an additional risk building pyramids early and by that being a juicy target).
In a few more tries I never was declared on at all and just went to war once the bad guys declared on my friends.
BTW, without Pyramids, beelining alphabet (via hunting - AH) and literature I reached Oxford and liberalism-astronomy faster.
I didn't play any game to completion. I'm pretty sure peaceful diplo doesn't work on this map as typically one of the nice guys will be the opponent.
I also had no luck making friends on the other continent. The ones I tried died in the mutual struggle wars (ok should have helped them a bit ).

Apr 13, 2008, 02:27 AM

Spoiler :

Thanks, klarius!

First try on your map, I got a Domination win 1595 AD. Hatty just has to be the most timid of all AIs when it comes to waging war. I couldn't have picked a worse ally.

Same stategy as ever:
Pyramids 2320 BC
GL 950 BC
NE+Academy,Settle all other GPs
Liberalism 300 AD
Communism 920 AD
PA with Hatty 1080 AD

275-740 AD common war with Hatty against Toku
760-960 AD common war against Monty
980-1100 AD common war against Alex, ends in PA
1100-end mop up the rest of the continent. Assembly line was the key since all AIs had Grenadiers and the stronger had Rifles. Hatty needs the tech edge since she is worthless at fighting...

Apr 13, 2008, 07:10 AM

Spoiler :

Your timing makes sense since you are getting masonry and wheel before writing. So you're delaying writing (and the library/academy) by a few turns in exchange for the pyramids. That's not a bad tradeoff. However skipping them and going straight to alpha allows you to trade writing with most AI's for almost all the missing 1st and 2nd level techs immediately - or are you still able to trade writing by the time you get to alpha? If so I'm inclined to think your way might be best if we don't need to tech as fast as possible due to the 40 turn constraint.

I don't think we should trade alpha until it's broken. CoL comes along fast enough afterwards if we need something, and we want to have as many tradeable techs as possible to instigate wars. Breaking alpha early means we likely can't keep monarchy, currency, etc. as tradeable for long.

In my game I had to do most of the heavy lifting with my artillery stack. My partner was pretty useless in taking cities. It took him 30+ turns to get a single city defended by longbows when he had rifles. Of the 7 heavily defended cities we faced, I took 5 and he took 2. So in that case, getting him AL to upgrade his rifles wasn't nearly as helpful as getting me artillery.

So far the limiting factor for me has also been the 40 turns for the PA.

If our continent isn't big enough for dom, it might be quicker to cover it anyway and take 1-2 cities on the other one rather than a late PA with an overseas AI.

Apr 13, 2008, 07:21 AM

Spoiler :

In my dom win the last city to fall needed 11 turns to come out of anarchy and pop borders. It occurred to me that if I had saved the GA I popped (or gotten 1 from Music) I could have gifted it to the AI in that city in hopes they would bomb it for an immediate win.

Anybody know if the AI will bomb a city out of anarchy instead of saving for a Golden Age?

Apr 13, 2008, 08:56 AM

Spoiler :

In my cultural try my partner had a GA which they kept on ice for the whole game. Whenever they got a second GA, they would bulb it.

Vanilla AI doesn't bomb GAs unless in a city severely culturally pressed.

You can add your GA as a superspecialist, though, in order to pop borders faster.

Apr 13, 2008, 09:23 AM

Spoiler :

Can you test an interim save from that attempt where you DOW and have them take a city to see if they use the GA on ice to bomb it out of anarchy immediately? I'm wondering if they will treat that the same as being culture pressed.

In my game I was only 5 tiles short after taking the last city, so I only needed it to come out of anarchy - settling wouldn't have gotten a win any faster.

Apr 13, 2008, 09:32 AM

Spoiler :

I assume you and Gnejs are getting a good idea of the sequence your Partner AI selects in capturing cities. If so, then a possible way to lessen the come-out-of-anarchy time would be to predict which city or two will be last to fall and pillage and occupy most/all of their food tiles far in advance, thereby starving the city down as much as possible before it gets captured.

Apr 13, 2008, 09:39 AM

Spoiler :

Well they "select" whichever city I tell them to it's one of the "let's discuss something else" options. They don't necessarily to it very well though.

Your starvation strategy works if given enough time+units to pillage before taking it. However when I DOW'd on the last AI it was conquered (4 cities) in IIRC about 10-15 turns - basically as fast as my partner's conquering unit could reach the most remote city (by then I had knocked everything down to 1 defender) - leaving not much time for pillaging/starvation. I could have DOW'd earlier and gone in to pillage, however then that AI immediately goes for my partner's border cities, since they're not that well defended yet. As it was 2 border cities fell on the turn after the DOW and had to be retaken on the next turn, which slows my partner's advance on the final one.

I think if the GA gift/bomb works it's faster overall. Otherwise starvation and trying to leave a smaller city for last will probably have to do. Or alternatively we could raze the last city if the resulting culture distribution is still sufficient for dom.

Apr 13, 2008, 09:49 AM

Spoiler :

Excellent! That gives us a number of factors to work with. We can choose a last city that works by culture creep after razing. Alternatively, we choose the one that will have the least pop when we're done messing with it. We might even choose the last AI based on one of these principles, especially if one AI has an Antarctic, food-less city.

Apr 13, 2008, 10:24 AM

Spoiler :

The AI will never bomb a last city, so that's no option.
From the SDK it's a necessary condition that the team's plot culture is below 60%. And that's not the case when the previous owner is dead.

Apr 13, 2008, 12:00 PM

Spoiler :

Darn. Well, maybe we won't need to take all the cities.

Scratch the raze option for the last city - a city is "razed" for culture purposes while it's revolting. However razing might be useful if say the next to last city is completely surrounded by the other cities' culture or its culture is not needed for dom - if we raze it then our partner won't need leave a garrison there and might get a unit to the last city faster.

I think I'm going to try klarius's map next. I want to see how fast they can get space if you help them properly. IIRC the HOF dates are faster than the dom dates Gnejs has been getting. We'll be slower given the sub-optimal start and super-crowded map, but we should check it out - especially since we don't know if our home continent is sufficient for domination.
I should be able to report on that in a couple days.

Apr 13, 2008, 01:11 PM

Spoiler :

Well, I tried again my map. Didn't play it out, just to PA with Hatty in 450AD.
Alphabet beeline (fishing-hunting-AH-writing-alpha).

Trade aggressively and get Hatty on Monte already with alphabet (after his demise Alex and later still Huyana and Saladin).

Then literature -> GLIB, drama -> globe.

CoL (partially)-CS-paper

Education (bulbed a GS) 400BC, liberalism->astronomy 100BC.
Another GS helped with sci method.

Communism in 450AD and Hatty is ready for PA.

The save

Apr 13, 2008, 01:43 PM

Spoiler :

I hadn't thought about going lit-drama before CoL-CS. I usually beeline CS after alpha for beauro. But early drama is definitely good since with this setup AI get monarchy later than I'm used to. Lit for GL would seem to not be better (6bpt vs 50%com+h), except that you might lose GL if you wait until after CS. Oh wait - that's also 6gpp while you're getting CS, which means you get edu sooner. Hmmm. I think I'll try drama-CoL-CS-Lit and see if GL still there or maybe I can trade for Lit - where's Mansa when you need him?

Klarius - can you post the save right before you made the PA (if you've made it in the attached - I can't open it at work) I want to see how fast I can get space and for that it's better to delay the PA as long as possible so your partner can keep trading.

Apr 13, 2008, 02:00 PM

Spoiler :

Not bad for an hour and a half's work. Think you could get that down to an hour?

I'm curious about Hatty's power when she was willing to sign the PA. WastinTime's write-up indicates she won't sign if she's #1. Was she?

I think that early PA trumps any other solution for increasing our research rate.

Apr 13, 2008, 02:03 PM

Spoiler :

No the save was after the PA.
But this one is before.
But I doubt that delaying the PA helps a lot. Hatty should get bigger for a good space date, IMO.
The others are already pretty back in tech.

Apr 13, 2008, 02:13 PM

Spoiler :

Hatty was No 1 in power. But that doesn't matter.
In contrast to common believe it hasn't to do with the power ranking directly.
The condition for denial is that the team would have more than half of the total power of the world.
This, BTW, also means that the solution of gifting units to the potential partner if he tells you your power is to high doesn't work. He will just flip then to his own power being to high.

Apr 13, 2008, 07:57 PM

Spoiler :

This definitely sounds like an improvement! I think I will grab your 450 AD save and see what kind of domination play it leads to.

We also need to find out how much difference it makes who you pick for the PA. So far I guess we have gone with the score/tech leader, but I have a suspicion that a unit spammer like Monty could be quite powerful also. Maybe it doesn't matter that the ally is backwards because as soon as we give them access to all our techs they will mass upgrade just the same. In that case our own research pace may become much more important.

Apr 13, 2008, 09:44 PM

Spoiler :

Tried it, got a domination 1500 AD. The opponents on our continent seemed to be slightly more equal to us in techs this time. I waited for Rifles, then took out Cyrus (Kyrus in klarius german version ), but when I was about to go after Frederick he also had rifles. Had to pick some softer targets until we had Infantry. It was also almost impossible to bribe any of the other on our continent into any wars. I had some more success with this in the previous try, very helpful when trying to lure away an AIs huge stacks before declaring.

Still, 1500 AD is the best result so far. I wonder how a peaceful approach would fare? Diplo might actually be possible with all the good relations. Some common wars might help further.

Apr 15, 2008, 06:44 AM

Spoiler :

I took klarius's 450AD save and turned it into 1816 space win. Partnered with Hatty eventually, but she wasn't the most optimal choice for space - she had the cities, but not many cottages. I also ignored the other continent and was eventually DOW'd by Izzy who landed about 6 units that I had to deal with which slowed my down a bit.

I'm going to guess early-mid 1700's for space is doable and possibly late 1600's if everything works out perfectly - such as quickly expanding a cottage-building AI to say 6 cities.

That means space is not faster than dom if our home continent is big enough. But we need to see how long it takes the AI to get units across the ocean in case our home continent isn't big enough - in that case space might actually be faster.

Does anyone know if the more peaceful leaders like Hatty will even send an army overseas? She was at war with HC and Saladin forever and never sent a unit.

Apr 16, 2008, 02:27 PM - Also 1500ad domination with klarius 450ad save

Spoiler :

I tried going after Cyrus with grenadiers and that worked fine. I think I was in position to win many turns sooner this way, but I made some lesser choices. Good decisions: I put Hatty onto Gunpowder and saved the free GM for us for a GAge (otherwise Hatty gets it). Then Chemistry> Steel for cannons. Then onward towards Rifles and Infantry. After Economics, I revolted to Theocracy (for double promotion) and Free Market (free civic change) and then spammed several cats till Chemistry. I upgraded the cats down in Hatty's city just before crossing the borders and DoWing Cyrus.

Bad decisions: Built Iron Works way too late. Should have gone after Gandhi before Mansa/Washington.

Troubles: Took me a while to get the 4th level for Heroic Epic.

Overall thoughts:
1. Key events: Early DoW-bribing to get early PA partner + level 4 for HE + cats/cannons to soften AI targets.
2. Having cats/cannons ready in advance means Hatty pillages roads much less and thus speeds up movement to next target a little bit.
3. IS a potential problem for max unit production in the end game. The less we chop the better. The less our research strategy relies on cottages instead of farms, the better. (I turned the two southern cottages into farms.)

Apr 16, 2008, 03:21 PM

Spoiler :

Well looks like we're definitely going dom if our home continent is big enough. LC you might want to check how many turns it takes to grab a city across the ocean in case we need to do this.

Any chance Gyanthaar has created a 3 continent map? Or that we're on a continent with only ~1/3 landmass? Dom might not be the best way to finish then.

One way to try to get a lvl 4 unit earlier would be to send a couple promoted with woodsman down to the front while we're mutual warring for PA turns and fortify them on a forest hill to be suicided against and build up experience.

Apr 16, 2008, 11:13 PM - 1320ad domination with klarius 450ad save

Spoiler :

Hatty beelined GP>Chem>Steel, I finished Econ first (GA is not too big for OCC, I think, only got me IronWorks 2 turns faster). prebuilt knight, cat, galleon, revolted to Theo/FreeMarket, then built cats till Steel, then IWorks. By then had the level 4 knight and built HE. Definitely the way to go.

As soon as Hatty upgraded to Grens I DoWed Cyrus (took a page from Gnejs' book). This turned out to be critical. By leveraging the new units asap, I was able to take out everyone before I even needed infantry.

After Steel: Rep Parts>Rifling>Steam Power>Railroad (while waiting to trade for Nationalism>COnstitution>Corporation). I was careful not to trade to DoW targets to slow their research. Railroads were important because Hatty immediately built rail everywhere and that enabled me to take out Gandhi's NW city after a 10-turn DoP+Corporation and then immediately go far South to pick off the last German city and a Vicky city. (Hatty decided to raze a Cyrus city with a bunch of World Wonders...).

Key points:
0. Level 4 = 10 XP (not 17--d'oh--I forgot).
1. Beeline grens>Ironworks>HE...(never needed)...Rifles>Infantry
2. Cannons rock--Hatty cleans up.
3. I was very careful to determine which cities I needed to capture first for territory expansion, and which ones my or Hatty's culture would subsume by themselves. For klarius' map that was: Cyrus>Ghandi>Washington>Mansa...>Freddie(no coming out of resistance needed for his cities at all).
4. Railroads rock. Drastically speed up the endgame. More important than Infantry, if we're far enough ahead.
5. Gandhi and Washington both emptied their cities to attack our capital!!! Even better than getting them to DoW someone else.

Still made a couple minor goofs, but nothing major. This is about the best I can do with this save, I think. I haven't tried going to the other continent yet.

Apr 17, 2008, 03:24 PM

Spoiler :

5. Gandhi and Washington both emptied their cities to attack our capital!!! Even better than getting them to DoW someone else.

I noticed that too on the other map - I DOW on Peter and move a stack of CR3 artillery on a tile next to his city on the same turn. There're about 12-15 rifles in there. Next turn, there's only 4 rifles. But two of KK's border cities fell IBT (then were then retaken IBT by KK). So there's something in the AI "logic" that's telling them they only need to keep 4-5 defenders per city, and then can go on offense with the rest. We can definitely use this to our advantage and go with smaller attack stacks. It's sort of like worker-baiting.

Apr 17, 2008, 05:38 PM

Spoiler :

This is typically Vanilla behaviour, where the AI is rather reckless with his units. In Warlords they stay in their cities, although not necessarily in the threatened city. I haven't noticed that the AI adjusts their defense depending on the threat, perhaps klarius can klarify/konfirm that?

 

[Gnejs]

Checking in. Hi team!

 

[klarius]

Checking in

This is typically Vanilla behaviour, where the AI is rather reckless with his units. In Warlords they stay in their cities, although not necessarily in the threatened city. I haven't noticed that the AI adjusts their defense depending on the threat, perhaps klarius can klarify/konfirm that?

The defenses are in fact the same in Vanilla and Warlords.
2 defenders + 1 for capital + 1 for every 9 population.
If the others move out is a question of if they have another job to do. There is the difference between vanilla and warlords as the units will not be as likely to go on suicide missions in warlords.

Being in danger (doesn't matter if it's one warrior or 1000 modern armor) will keep 1-2 more units in the town unless they can directly attack,

 

[Mîtiu Ioan]

Checking in !

One curiosity : is Cultural Victory possible in OCC game ???

 

[LowtherCastle]

Yeehawww!!! This is going to be fun.

Mîtiu, are you already back or are you still going on you vacation?

Thanks for assembling our pms, Erkon, now we just someone to summarize them...

EDIT: @klarius: Couple of questions. 1. Do you know the mechanics of when an AI is willing to be bribed to DoW and what price they're willing to accept? 2. How did you manage to get Hatty to DoW Monty (or did you bribe Monty to DoW Hatty)? Did you manipulate their relations in advance? Did you do your tech trading to have a certain amount of techs to give to Hatty? Did you pick Hatty because she's creative and was at the top of the score charts? (Or was it just blind luck that Hatty was willing to DoW? ) When I attempted your save, Hatty was cautious with Monty when I did the AH...Alpha bee-line.

 

[klarius]

I bribed Hatty, Mansa and Freddy, but gave up on the latter two, when I saw that they weren't getting any nice empires.
Cyrus, Gandhi and Washington need to be friendly before you can bribe them. That's too late, except somebody declares on them.

Edit:
Note Hatty and Freddy need to be pleased with you and annoyed with the target to accept.
Mansa will do it at cautious/cautious.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Okay, so we'll have to wait and see which AIs we get (if any). What about the cost of bribing DoW? Any way we can determine that in advance?

 

[morpheus11]

Checking in.

Good Luck everyone. I might not have much to say, but I will always be watching

 

[klarius]

Okay, so we'll have to wait and see which AIs we get (if any). What about the cost of bribing DoW? Any way we can determine that in advance?

In fact yes. But I don't have the formula with me.
There's nevertheless the problem what's the value of our techs (they might have partially researched).
My way was to just trade for techs with the people I don't want to bribe mainly and hope I have then enough. Worked well enough on this map.

 

[klarius]

Ok, the value of a DoW is:

(50+game_turn + 8*no_enemy_cities) * ((enemy_power+100)/(power+100)) * attitude_fac

attitude_fac= 1, 1.5, 2, 3, 4 for
furious .. friendly

3 times the value if the target is not a "land_target"=8 adjacent tiles
6 times the value if we are not at war with them

So an example:
Turn 100 Hatty is annoyed with Monte who has 2 cities and about the same power.

(50+100+2*8)*1*1.5 = 254

 

[LowtherCastle]

Value in beakers?

 

[klarius]

Value in beakers?

This is the value in gold. All trades are evaluated in a gold equivalent.

The value of techs is a whole other can of worms, but the value of remaining beakers is generally higher than the corresponding sum in gold.

 

[Gnejs]

Ok, the value of a DoW is:

(50+game_turn + 8*no_enemy_cities) * ((enemy_power+100)/(power+100)) * attitude_fac

attitude_fac= 1, 1.5, 2, 3, 4 for
furious .. friendly

3 times the value if the target is over the ocean
6 times the value if we are not at war with them

So an example:
Turn 100 Hatty is annoyed with Monte who has 2 cities and about the same power.

(50+100+2*8)*1*1.5 = 254

klarius, how very interesting! Is it 6*254 = 1524 if we are not at war with Monty? If that is the case then we should declare war ourselves first. Nothing for the faint-hearted though...

Btw, doesn't the attitude towards us matter? What about those "we just don't like you enough", is that just because the cost is steeper than what we can afford?

What about the dog-piling? In my test games I first couldn't make an AI declare war, but once I got another AI to DoW on the target the first AI was suddenly willing to join in, often for a very low price.

 

[klarius]

Sure we have to declare first.
That's really no problem early in the game when the AI is not prepared.
I never saw an AI unit in our land in the test games.

The attitude towards us doesn't matter for the cost.
The AIs have different thresholds when they will make an alliance at all. No money will make them declare if they don't have this attitude. This ranges from cautious to friendly. If you don't have this they will tell you they don't like you enough.
They can also refuse if the target is too powerful. Then they say they have nothing to gain. This can be helped by others at war with the AI as they take into account all partners in the power calculation.
They can also refuse when they have already a war or are planning one. Then they have enough at their hands.

 

[Erkon]

I've made a test map but have not yet played it. Please report any errors and I will correct them tomorrow.