Subdued Animals in C2C discussions

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There is a generic 'poultry' map bonus.
I'd be a little leary about continuing to add more map bonuses. I would think it just makes the more critical ones harder and harder to find. I dont know how many games I've had to abandon because of no copper access. The extreme rarity of tin is also disappointing, thougb less critical.

I thought copper was defined as strategic which means there should be at least one per starting nation. They may all end up on the one continent but they should be there.

I fixed a recent bug that may have been placing, or at least considering, manufactured resources as map bonuses. They would not show up as they have null graphics. This may be what was causing SO's problem. It may also be skewing the other resources slightly.

edit Turkey is special because it only occurs in one region, North America. This makes it a candidate for a trade good. Mind you there is the Brush/Bush/Scrub Turkey in Australia which has a similar environment and looks.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I know this is a little off the point of why it was brought up but few people realize there's actually only two mineable sources of tin on real-world Earth. So it's fairly rare really.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I get multiple copper on PM maps all the time. Did taxman say what map he uses? And tin shows up too.

JosEPh

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I just found an error in the post map script placing of kangaroos, I am testing my fix now.

 

[Taxman66]

I didnt say it (copper) doesn't show up. But often times it winds up being unaccessable due to positioning, distance or on a peek. Yeah, I know minable tin was rare, and it is not killer if not available... But I'm also told c2c is not a history sim either.

For the record I was mostly just trying to warn against adding more and more resources that could crowd out the really important ones.

I'd be happy to take this to a new or different thread.

FYI I tend to play pw3, but often times 'cheat' and take a quick peak at the wb, to see if the starting position is long term viable. My perfect map.would probably be some kind of cross between the pw maps and a terra map. Are the earth maps.in the scenario option up to date?

 

[tmv]

Peak resources are indeed a problem, especially if the resource has become completely uninteresting by the time peaks can be mined, e.g. Obsidian. Is there a way that at least the prehistoric / ancient resources are not only placed on peaks, or could Work Mules / Lama Workers get a way to mine peaks before Medieval?

 

[JosEPh_II]

For the record I was mostly just trying to warn against adding more and more resources that could crowd out the really important ones.

Main reason why I don't use the More Resources Option when setting up a game, or the more resources in a Map's set up.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

Main reason why I don't use the More Resources Option when setting up a game, or the more resources in a Map's set up.

JosEPh

Funny, that's exactly why I do use them. If you get more frequent resource placements, you can more likely expect to get a fair distribution of resources considering how many map resources we have.

More resources in this case doesn't mean more types - it means more frequency of placement.

 

[Faustmouse]

I don't know how it is done yet, but what about that:

1) After map generation, add resources flagged as "strategic" to the map - one per civ at least.

2) Add dummy ressources to the map like "wild animals", "fruit-trees", "grains" etc.

3) Replace these dummies with appropiate resources. So wild animals becomes deer in northern europe, kangaroos in australia, bisons in north america etc. If two different resources are ok for a region, it could be random.

This way, if you add more animals like rabbits, goats etc it won't affect copper placement at all - it jut brings more diversity to a specific category.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Funny, that's exactly why I do use them. If you get more frequent resource placements, you can more likely expect to get a fair distribution of resources considering how many map resources we have.

More resources in this case doesn't mean more types - it means more frequency of placement.

And I've seen the maps that SO uses that uses your type set up. Waaaay to overcrowded with resources, waaayy too much. No strategy for city placement, no race for the important resources, no pressure to find the valuable resources. Not when you can plop down a city anywhere and it ends up with all tiles in the Fat X with a resource. That is absurdity for a strategy game.

JosEPh

 

[Thunderbrd]

And I've seen the maps that SO uses that uses your type set up. Waaaay to overcrowded with resources, waaayy too much. No strategy for city placement, no race for the important resources, no pressure to find the valuable resources. Not when you can plop down a city anywhere and it ends up with all tiles in the Fat X with a resource. That is absurdity for a strategy game.

JosEPh

I can respect that view. I don't PREFER it personally but I can certainly see why others would.

I feel that the game too easily becomes dramatically unfair if the important resources are too restricted. Basically its another way to benefit larger nations over smaller ones. Which could be good if nations that get too large collapse so it could tempt nations to make the poor choice to overgrow. But there's nothing poor about that choice right now.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

For the record I was mostly just trying to warn against adding more and more resources that could crowd out the really important ones.

Thinking on this I can sort of treat turkeys and others in a way that will not affect resource placement. Simply have the map bonus but don't let the map scripts place it. This is what we do with Sea Lions etc because we want them on the coast and there is no parameter to indicate that. The turkey unit will still spawn as usual plus spawn on the bonus. The subdued turkey will be able to place the resource on the map similar to how the subdued donkey (and GF) do now.

BtW Sea lions, Walrus and proposed Penguins are not added by the map script but added afterward. Using the mucho resources option will reduce their appearance and reduce the number of plots the Great Farmer has access to.

I don't know how it is done yet, but what about that:

1) After map generation, add resources flagged as "strategic" to the map - one per civ at least.

2) Add dummy ressources to the map like "wild animals", "fruit-trees", "grains" etc.

3) Replace these dummies with appropiate resources. So wild animals becomes deer in northern europe, kangaroos in australia, bisons in north america etc. If two different resources are ok for a region, it could be random.

This way, if you add more animals like rabbits, goats etc it won't affect copper placement at all - it jut brings more diversity to a specific category.

1) is already how it is done.

2) Horses are also a strategic resource

Having an early set on boni until your people can tell the difference between a cow and a guinea pig is what we need if we stick with the idea that animal boni suddenly appear.

3) Post map script processing goes through afterwards and replaces inappropriate animal resources with appropriate ones in the region. Eg all deer, cow and rabbit etc are replaced with kangaroo in Oceania.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

If you look at PoyhonDbg.log after generating a map you will find out all sorts of information about the world, including a map, which resources were not placed randomly and which ones were unable to be placed at all.

 

[Faustmouse]

2) I didn't mean replacing these during gameplay (eventhought I like this concept a lot) but rather as you explained in 3)

But instead with "only" replacing cows etc with kangaroo in australia, I'd go a step further and don't place any cows, rabbits etc during map generation at all. Only the generic animal. The post map script processing would then replace animals with kangaroos in oceania, and animals with cows or sheeps in europe.

 

[JosEPh_II]

2) I didn't mean replacing these during gameplay (eventhought I like this concept a lot) but rather as you explained in 3)

But instead with "only" replacing cows etc with kangaroo in australia, I'd go a step further and don't place any cows, rabbits etc during map generation at all. Only the generic animal. The post map script processing would then replace animals with kangaroos in oceania, and animals with cows or sheeps in europe.

What about Non earth type maps? The old world vs new world does not really apply to these type maps like PM or Archipelago or Custom Continents, etc.

JosEPh

 

[Faustmouse]

What about Non earth type maps? The old world vs new world does not really apply to these type maps like PM or Archipelago or Custom Continents, etc.

JosEPh

Aren't all maps by default divided into 6 areas?
But even if not, then these generic resources can be edited randomly.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Aren't all maps by default divided into 6 areas?
But even if not, then these generic resources can be edited randomly.

I don't have a clue if they are or not. Hence the question.

JosEPh

 

[Faustmouse]

I don't have a clue if they are or not. Hence the question.

JosEPh

Me neither But DH sure knows it. But as I said, it shouldn't be a problem if not.
As long as all strategic resources are in every game, I wouldn't mind not having pigs or mangos on a map.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

All random maps are split into the 6 regions because of the Spawn XML. This is why maps that do not use these 6 regions have to have their own spawn xml which has to replace the default one.

2) I didn't mean replacing these during gameplay (eventhought I like this concept a lot) but rather as you explained in 3)

But instead with "only" replacing cows etc with kangaroo in australia, I'd go a step further and don't place any cows, rabbits etc during map generation at all. Only the generic animal. The post map script processing would then replace animals with kangaroos in oceania, and animals with cows or sheeps in europe.

Having a generic animal resource would result in much fewer animal resources on the map. ie you would only get as many as you do for cows now.

 

[Taxman66]

I rarely see cows, but loads of buffalo.