Team Piffle

[Robi D]

Just got this from Piffle

Robi,

Team Piffle is wondering if you guys wanted to swap CoL and Math for Civil Service or some of the other techs we have. We are 6 turns from getting CoL ourselves but if we could trade it this turn then we can go ahead and use our Great Merchant for CS and maybe share the wealth. Work out actual tech costs later... Talk to me or Whomper when you get a chance.

Casey

We can't trade CoL as Innovia gave it to us. I think we should be up front as to the reason. We can offer them Calandar which is a similar value. From memory Math and Calandar would still be a little less then CS but they seem eager to trade and i think we can work out a good deal.

Any thoughts?

 

[robboo]

Talk to Innovia and tell them of our 3 way deal. See what they say.

Honestly tell Piffle of our problem. It shows we honor our deals and we are willing to attempt to work things out. To make them happy.

I think we should talk to both teams about the situation and see if we can reach a deal.

 

[BCLG100]

Erm it would be pointless offering them calendar instead of CoL as CoL is a pre req for CS and therefore they wouldnt be able to pop CS with their GM, it seems that they had the same idea as kuningas about the GM pop. Therefore it has to be Code of laws. However we cant trade this.

Dear Piffleness

Well im back now, time to kick this foreign policies arse. We cant trade CoL was the stipulations in our tech deal. We will have to check with whom we traded it to find out whether this deal can be accomplished. We will get back to you asap

regards
bclg

and now to innovia

greetings

we recieved an offer from team piffle to trade math and CoL with them for Civil service, naturally we informed them that we couldnt due to the stipulation placed on CoL by both teams. However we ask that we can trade it and then off CS to you for a discount NEED TO DECIDE HOW MUCH-HOW ABOUT 50% off?.

regards
BCLG

 

[Robi D]

Piffle are already researching CoL and will have it in 6 turns. They asked for the trade to speed thing up because they have a GM to lightbulb CS

 

[BCLG100]

Yes i know and someone proposed we give them calendar instead of CoL, that wouldnt work as part of their CS research.

 

[Robi D]

Yes i know and someone proposed we give them calendar instead of CoL, that wouldnt work as part of their CS research.

Well we don't have anything else to give them for CS. Piffle will have CoL in about 5 turns. I think to get a deal going that involves Piffle and Innovia would be difficult to do quickly since they haven't met.

THe most likely thing that will happen is Piffle research CoL and lighbulb CS, which has a base value (from the chart) of 800 beakers. Math and Calandar are 350 each (CoL is also 350). It might not match their path but we have nothing else to offer for a while.

 

[BCLG100]

Well i proposed both scenarios to them.

 

[BCLG100]

Simon says:
i sent a reply to whomp about 1 maybe 2 hours ago concerning the tech deal
Simon says:
how about this one
casey j says:
we were thinking monarchy + math, then just work something else out for tech costs later. you guys would just owe us a debt to work out
Simon says:
math, monarchy and calendar for CS and med
Simon says:
it leaves you 23 beakers in our debt
casey j says:
med?
Simon says:
but pretty non importantin
Simon says:
meditation
casey j says:
ah
casey j says:
that might work
casey j says:
lets see
casey j says:
we want to get a friend in bureaucracy with us
casey j says:
to take on Epsilon's commanding tech power
Simon says:
yep
Simon says:
well from memory we can have a better gnp without beauro
Simon says:
than epsilon right now
casey j says:
i posted that in the forums, we will see what the team says
Simon says:
also, with your permision we'd trade CS on to innovia and give you a cut price deal on whatever we get in return
Simon says:
that way the 3 of us would be in beauro
casey j says:
what do they have?
Simon says:
ill just check
casey j says:
to give in return
Simon says:
sorry my internets slow just getting into team forums now
casey j says:
no problem, how much more school do you have to go
Simon says:
2 and a half years
casey j says:
man
casey j says:
thats a long hard road!
Simon says:
damn i just missed theoden
Simon says:
(on msn that is)
Simon says:
ok our forums are more messed up than KISS's were
Simon says:
but from the gist of it it seems innovia will have CS v soon also
Simon says:
ok im just going to load up the game see the techs everyone has and this will make more sense
casey j says:
ok
casey j says:
im trying to see what else is good out there but i cant load these pbem saves for some reason
casey j says:
what about construction?
Simon says:
hmmm well what would you say about trading CS from us and using your GM on something else?
casey j says:
damn simon you are going to make me pull up GP tech preferences arent you?
casey j says:

Simon says:
lol i imagine its currency next
casey j says:
thats a good idea
casey j says:
currency is almost done by Epsilon, i know they were wanting to trade it recently but we havent replied
casey j says:
we could get machinery
Simon says:
ok just downloading save now and opening tech screen on cfc
Simon says:
math CS for currency machinery
Simon says:
that'd leave us about 100 beakers in your debt i think
casey j says:
hmm let me see what the team thinks
casey j says:
what about monarchy
casey j says:
we are also interested in construction for cats
casey j says:
in case we go to war w/ epsilon
Simon says:
hmmm i dont think we have it
casey j says:
ok maybe we could work out some future deals and direct research
casey j says:
are you usually on about this time?
Simon says:
kinda varied recently
Simon says:
but i can be on fairly often
casey j says:
i'll pm you or something
casey j says:
but i will see what we want to do and get back to you asap
Simon says:
the amount of piffle members i have on my msn im sure ill find someone
casey j says:
do you know how close innovia is to CS?
Simon says:
just loading up the save really
Simon says:
'very soon' is what we got in last chat i had with them
casey j says:
hmm ok, we will get something worked out
Simon says:
they already have it
Simon says:
according to latest save
casey j says:
oh well good
casey j says:
let me get some feedback and i will track you down and we can get this done
Simon says:
hmmm hang on a sex
Simon says:
*sec
Simon says:
the only problem is that looking at the save now they appear to have all the techs we were offering them
casey j says:
damn
casey j says:
did they meet someone?
Simon says:
im not sure, they were interested in forming a 3 way against epsilon
Simon says:
but basically if you can get them techs they also dont have them so we can trade them so all 3 of us have it
casey j says:
alright, well we were 7 turns from machinery before we changed to CoL, so we will have that soon, and we might be able to trade for currency from Epsilon with outdated techs that they dont have
casey j says:
if that is so, we could be tech leaders for a while

thats a chat i just had with cane.


basically if we can get CS from innovia we can trade it with piffle for currency and machinery.

for innvoia

Greetings innoverians

Sorry for the delay in reply ive been busy recently. We were wondering whether you'd be interested in swapping machinery and calender for Civil service and meditation?

We should have machinery shortly but if we were to have CS before then we could get it quicker and then maybe ignore the beaker difference between the deal

Regards
BCLG

how does that sound, we adapted the truth slightly with wanting to get CS sooner rather than later.

 

[robboo]

sounds good

 

[BCLG100]

hmmmm pooo.....

casey j says:
the piffle people dont want to give up machinery, im afraid
casey j says:
i think they want to just use our GM for CS and trade that to you with meditation. do you have a religion yet?
Simon says:
we already have CS....
Simon says:
we were under the assumption that you had already agreed to the tech deal
casey j says:
who agreed?
Simon says:
sorry?
casey j says:
i agreed?
casey j says:
or whomp or?
Simon says:
just opening up the forums
Simon says:
Did you find out if you guys can get CS from Innovia? I think we can get Currency from Epsilon to throw in the mix if you need trade bait, they have been knocking down our door to trade something/anything. We can send meditation this turn for a good will interest payment on whatever we decide to do
Simon says:
that one implied to us that you wanted to proceed with the trade
casey j says:
with what trade though? we hadnt worked out the details
casey j says:
you hadnt heard from innovia at that time
Simon says:
well hang on ill just check whether we have CS yet
casey j says:
i dont want to be a pain but we do have to vote on everything
Simon says:
no i appreciate that
casey j says:
if it was just me i would say sure lets do it
Simon says:
yup i know, im just checking if the deal has actually gone through yet
Simon says:
just speaking to dutchfire now
Simon says:
alas, we have already traded CS with them
Simon says:
and we now have it avaliable
Simon says:
unfortunatly if your not willing to trade machinery for it we're going to have to research it ourselves to hold to our end of the bargain with innovia
casey j says:
k we will see what they say
Simon says:
apologies for the mix up
casey j says:
i am for it but others arent
casey j says:
what about calendar for currency swap?
Simon says:
we can if it would make piffle happier force innovia to agree to a no trade further with machinery (ie so it doesnt get to epsilon)
casey j says:
hmm ok i will post that
Simon says:
we would prefer to trade machinery with you than self research it obviously
Simon says:
and also stop you wasting a GM on a tech the majority of the game already have
Simon says:
if you dont mind me asking what were the reasons for not trading machinery?
Simon says:
so you could have a monopoly on maces?
casey j says:
i don t know, some didnt want to trade it
casey j says:
no iron
casey j says:
so no maces
Simon says:
im not sure what kind of crazy maces you build
Simon says:
Maceman
Melee Units 8 1 70 Civil Service
Machinery
Copper or Iron Rifleman
Grenadier +50% vs. Melee Units
Simon says:
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/units/
casey j says:
damn i thought you could build them with copper but someone else was yammering on about no maces
Simon says:
team piffle can have that info for free
casey j says:
ha
Simon says:
but if you can find a reason for not trading us the tech, aloha would be happy to answer the question
Simon says:
the only reason i see for not trading it, is that it makes it marginally cheaper for epsilon but now as we'll have to research it anyways it'll be cheaper soon enough anyways
casey j says:
well simon i want to, and you are right, but it is a pain to duplicate research when we could both be doing something for fruitful
Simon says:
exactly
casey j says:
*more fruitful
Simon says:
mind if i bring the bald one in?
casey j says:
yes
Simon says:
lol
casey j says:
bring him on i just saw him get on

so it appears after the positivness we got from cane the rest of piffle didnt actually want to do the deal.

im now trying to pursuade bernie and cane that its the right idea.

 

[BCLG100]

casey j says:
no Aloha wants to send us CS for machinery basically
casey j says:
and some other stuff
casey j says:
and i thought some would object (Conroe)
Whomp says:
would it be traded to innovia?
Simon says:
hmmm, well CS is worth more, we save you a GM, everyone can research more to kill epsilon- i dont see why not?
Simon says:
yes it would be
Whomp says:
and the other team?
Simon says:
loco?
Whomp says:
si mucho loco
Simon says:
no, not for many a moon
Simon says:
talking to them is like getting blood from a stone
Simon says:
we just wait for them to contact us when they want something
Simon says:
so if you want we can say machinery is untradable
Simon says:
to loco
Whomp says:
I would simply like to participate in any booty received from the tech
Whomp says:
so if you make a deal with them I think we'd like a piece of that action if it's possible
Simon says:
of course
Simon says:
we'd inform you if we were and then give you a discount or whatever on whatever we recieve
Simon says:
if that makes sense?
Whomp says:
so after everything's said and done are we all at tech parity?
Simon says:
no, i think you are still a little behind
Whomp says:
Why?
Simon says:
we right now have CS, calender, monarchy and math
Whomp says:
Becauase you have contacts?
Simon says:
you have meditation
Simon says:
no, we've self researched most of them
Simon says:
except CS obviously
casey j says:
i thought we were getting calendar and math so we could provide you with currency
Simon says:
math 250, calender 350 for currency 400?
casey j says:
this is the most complicated trade in the history of civ
Simon says:
and then CS 800 for machinery 700
Whomp says:
Right tell me the bottom line
Simon says:
well i think that would mean you owe us a lot of beakers
Simon says:
basically we thought you'd already agreed to trade us machinery thus we continued with the deal with innovia for CS and med for machinery and calender
Simon says:
now it appears we were mistaken or there was confusion or something which means your not going to be trading us machinery
Simon says:
thus we will have to self research it to fulfill our agreement with innovia
casey j says:
no we just have to vote on it
casey j says:
so we need to get some clarity
Simon says:
indeed, we obviously want to trade with you as epsilon is a problem that needs to be dealt with and one way of doing so is beating them tech wise
Whomp says:
right so then how far behind are we in techs if this deal goes down
Whomp says:
the reality is we have the biggest threat from epsilon
Simon says:
erm, well if just the machinery one went down
Simon says:
you'd have currency
Simon says:
whilst we would have calender, monarchy and math
casey j says:
if we trade med and machinery, for CS, and math and calendar, then provide you with currency wehn our trade with epsilon goes through, how much do we owe you? and how do we make that up?
Simon says:
well we are already getting med from innovia now
Simon says:
but without giving us currency thats about 700 beakers
Simon says:
then with currency thats 300 beakers you owe us
casey j says:
how do we make that up?
Simon says:
you could research construction?
Simon says:
thats 350 beakers
Simon says:
which'd then leave us about 50 beakers in your debt
Whomp says:
how did we get get behind when our GNP is what it is?
Whomp says:
it has to be your trades with innovia
Simon says:
but then we could gift you them techs now in compensation of that?
Simon says:
which would be quite a large good faith agreement if you think about it
Simon says:
we have traded with innovia yes
Simon says:
our only tech though that wasnt traded with innovia from that list is civil service iirc
Simon says:
we also have literature (but i think you already have that)
Whomp says:
so that's why we're behind
Whomp says:
so we need to trade with epsilon to keep pace
Whomp says:
that's what i'm hearing
Simon says:
if thats what you choose to do, i just offered you a perfectly good way of not doing that
Simon says:
as once you achieve tech parity you'll be able to trade with us and innovia more easily
Whomp says:
Well if we owe beakers it's the only way
Simon says:
especially as in theory you could achieve tech parity next turn whilst we have to wait for you to give us machinery, currency and construction
Whomp says:
Cane do you follow this?
Whomp says:
I'm old and decreipt so....
Simon says:
basically what im proposing is this
Simon says:
(in the grand scheme of things basically) we give you CS, math and calender.........you give us machinery, currency and construction
Simon says:
that leaves you only monarchy short
Whomp says:
One thing we need too
Simon says:
well we can change calender for monarchy if you want?
Simon says:
but then it means we owe you a few more beakers
casey j says:
so if we agree are you sending all 3 techs this turn?
casey j says:
this upcoming turn i mean
Simon says:
well, id have to see what everyone else thinks
Simon says:
but we could agree to sending all 3
Simon says:
or we could agree to sending 2 now and then the 3rd when you've completed machinery and we just have to wait on construction?
casey j says:
i think we would need all three next turn
Whomp says:
if you send all three we may be able to manipulate Epsilon's deal better
casey j says:
to proceed on that path
Simon says:
how would that make a difference?
casey j says:
1) get currency from epsilon- we need math, calendar
casey j says:
2) CS will get us to construction sooner with increased beakers
casey j says:
3) everyone benefits
Simon says:
4)we end up giving you a load of techs which will bring you up to tech parity and then you might turn around and side with epsilon
casey j says:
HA
Simon says:
thats what we have to worry about
casey j says:
i assure you that is not going to happen
casey j says:
Whomp?
Simon says:
if we give you math and calender, how soon can we have currency?
casey j says:
soon as we trade it to epsilon
casey j says:
2 turns i guess
casey j says:
more gold via trade routes for us both
Simon says:
didnt epsilon agree to a 20% discount on techs with you?
Whomp says:
They've made that offer and we'd prefer to never use it
casey j says:
yes we can manipulate that
Simon says:
so why would you be giving them pretty much 500 beakers for a 400 beaker tech?
casey j says:
no they have math
casey j says:
and currency
casey j says:
calendar is 350 vs. currency 400 right?
Simon says:
yep
Simon says:
but you said before
casey j says:
1) get currency from epsilon- we need math, calendar
casey j says:
we need math, to open up calendar, we cant get calendar w/o math
casey j says:
receive calendar i mean
Simon says:
ah ok my apologies my mistake
casey j says:
in the end, everyone will be up machinery on Epsilon. what are you and innovia going to research while we provide construction?
Simon says:
hmmm how far away from machinery are you?
casey j says:
I dont know
casey j says:
since we will have an anarchy for CS
Simon says:
do you know how far away right now?
casey j says:
let me dig that up
casey j says:
or if whomp can open up the save that would work too
Whomp says:
i'm not aware either
Whomp says:
should i open a save?
Simon says:
do you not have a turn tracker thread or something?
casey j says:
i dont know, the bottom line is it wont be over 7-10 turns
casey j says:
i dont know how big of a boost we will get due to bureau
Simon says:
ah ok, then with construction thats another 7-10 turns
Simon says:
by that time we shall probably have philosophy and music
casey j says:
are you on philosophy now?
Simon says:
in a way
casey j says:
using a GS?
Simon says:
think thats the plan
Simon says:
though we may set up an acadamy
Whomp says:
brb
casey j says:
i thought you guys had a religion already
Simon says:
nope
casey j says:
ah ok, well maybe we can do construction and go on the bottom path. how soon are you popping your GS? you might be able to use him for optics

You have just sent a Nudge!

Simon says:
sorry about that
casey j says:
and open up guilds
casey j says:
heh
Simon says:
i think the team was fairly set on philosophy
Simon says:
but we're generally sticking ot the top of the tree
Simon says:
we could pursuade innovia to go down the middle?
casey j says:
maybe i meant feudalism before, merchants can be used on Guilds
casey j says:
but no iron i forgot
casey j says:
so no knights
Simon says:
you could always travel the merchant and use the money to do a mass upgrade of axes to rush epsilon with?
casey j says:
i thought of that, but i dont know if we are positioned to do that effectively. we want to kill them off
Simon says:
*shrug* anyways friends are coming over now so im going to have to head off
Simon says:
speak to you asap about that deal
Simon says:
if you find the techs sent with no message from me just accept

so what you guys think, we give them CS, math and calender next turn and then in the following 15 turns they give us, construction, machinery and currency

 

[Robi D]

so what you guys think, we give them CS, math and calender next turn and then in the following 15 turns they give us, construction, machinery and currency

Ok thats all a bit odd. Here are my thoughts in no specific order

1. First off killercane breaks the most basic rule of diplomacy in promising something thats not his to promise. Every should know if you need team approval for a deal to say that is the case. In effect its dropped us in the s*** because we went to make trades based on his remarks with Innovia.

2. Given their desire to get rid of epsilon, why is the team against a trade that helps them. We did not offer the trade to them, they (cane and whomp) offered it to us in our talks (me with whomp and BC with cane)

3. I could be misreading it but i didn't like their tone, like it is our fault they are lagging tech wise. They could have traded with epsilon at any stage but didn't want to and epsilon has outplayed them and gotten ahead in techs. Now they seem to be resentful of us because we traded with our neighbours, so they now think its our responsibility to bring them up to speed at our cost, and not just over a couple of tech deals but in this one.

4. Without knowing the map, given piffle are the first ones to have met epsilon means they are the closest to them and therefore stand the most to gain out of their demise, so if we are going to give them techs and military help what is in it for us, so far they haven't offered anything that we could get from Innovia.

5. I surprise that as a team they were unaware that you can build maces with copper I mean how hard is it to check?

6. We are being very generous with the above deal, it would help them catch up at least half the tech they are behind, yet they are still unsure and somewhat unhappy.

Given all that i'm not really sure the deal is in our best interests, because to take a leap of faith on Piffle is a bit difficult for me given their attitude, i can't help but feel that we will somehow get burnt in the end.

 

[robboo]

I feel the same....especially when Whomp left after you said that you could turn on us.

We know Dave is famous for his you dont attack me i wont attack you deal. I bet he made that deal with them. Then once we decide to hit them these guys can lag back...another thing that Tubby is known for. We have an advantage..why give it away. I think we need to be more loyal to innovia.

 

[BCLG100]

Indeed however if you look at the average tech values we are infact winning

math 250 calender 350 and CS 800 for machinery 700 currency 400 and construction 350

we get about 50 beakers more, of course the tech prices ingame are different but that doesnt mean we dont still hold an advantage.

we are also giving them 1 tech which every other team has (math) and one tech which 3 out of 5 teams have (CS) the only thing we have that the majority dont is calender (us and innovia). Right now no-one has machinery, only epsilon has currency and no-one has construction.

We're also getting out of this deal a bunch of techs we cant be bothered to research, i know what you mean about the tone-especially with whomp that he was blaming us because we were further ahead in tech- it is there own fault they chose not to trade with epsilon. However i do agree this deal is in our best interests especially so we can hold up our end of the bargain sooner with innovia

 

[Robi D]

I don't have a problem with the tech deal as it stands with respect to the techs, but piffles attitude is a worry. They seem to be fishing for extra help and seem to feel we owe it to them. Also it must be said their game play on the face of it has so far not inspired. Overall we have already commited ourselves in a way to the deal going through so i would say lets do it, but if piffle come back with any changes to the proposal then i would be looking at the whole thing very closely

 

[robboo]

agreed with Robi the trade is sound..its just the delivery from their side.

 

[BCLG100]

ok can you offer them the techs asap

 

[BCLG100]

Hey

The people of Aloha have agreed to the following tech swap

we give you civil service, math and calender in exchange for
machinery, currency and construction. This is under the assumption that we recieve all three techs within 20 turns- given your explanation on tech rate in chat we assume this wont be a problem

best
simon

just sent that to cane

 

[robboo]

off hand what would we get right now from them....

i wish we could see what epsilon had and what they get..once we meet them we can watch for any "tech cheating "by piffle.

 

[BCLG100]

right now we get nothing, they have no techs that we want.

innovia have met epsilon i was speaking to dutch about it the other day so i shall see what they say.

cane onetime claimed they'd met everyone but that is obviously false or they wouldnt be making such a deal with us