The Dawn of Civilization / Opening Strategies

[bernlin2000]

More emphasis on early exploration should be interesting -- in Civ IV it was often possible, even optimal, to not bother exploring more than the very near vicinity for some time.

Certainly at the higher levels, when goodie huts are more bad then good, it seems. I usually play Noble or below, so early exploration is very important: I've had times where I've gotten 2 settlers and a worker, that's an advantage that has huge effects throughout the game.

 

[SeismoGraf]

Workers expensive? They only cost twice what a warrior does; in Civ IV it was 4 times.

In contrast to Civ4, the excess food continues to grow the city while it produces the worker; so no speedup from converting food into hammers.

Well I know that workers no longer affect the growth of your cities (which is a plus for starting with them first). Are you saying there some negatives to building a worker first?

Yes, not halting growth of the city could be viewed as an advantage in some or most circumstances. A worker first start can still be attractive, but it no longer dwarfs all other (economic) options, like it often did in Civ4. After what I've read, there could be two main reasons: improvements don't yield as much and the other options (scout, warrior etc.) have been made a lot more attractive, also economically.

I've never seen a huge advantage, though, to building one right when you hit 2 pop.

Probably building a settler at pop 2 will be the exception. Some examples: 1) playing without barbs on archipelago - here worker followed by settler seems very plausible 2) your scouts have found a choke point with a nearby enemy and settling that choke point quickly secures a whole subcontinent for a long time 3) you already got a worker from an ancient ruin (only on easier difficulty levels).

Certainly at the higher levels, when goodie huts are more bad then good, it seems.

Quote from the Civ5 Analyst: "According to 2K_Greg's list on the official site, the goody options are all positive".

 

[remconius]

Dont forget all units move 2 tiles, so the first moves will show more terrain. And exploring with the warrior will also go faster.
And the fact that cities can grow to radius 3 also takes a bit more planning.

I guess the first trade-off is around exploring the map with a scout and getting all or most one-off benefits
OR
improving your city with a worker to get long term benefits.

In civ4 worker always paid off, where in civ5 it might be worth to explore a bit more.

 

[SalmonSoil]

Probably building a settler at pop 2 will be the exception. Some examples: 1) playing without barbs on archipelago - here worker followed by settler seems very plausible

Considering that two civs UPs are based around barbarians I don't think you will be able to turn them off.

 

[drowzyus360]

i would think that it would also depend on what civ you start with.
i think germany is one of the civs that profits alot from goody huts and killing barbs...

 

[craig123]

I guess that scout - worker - settler will work best most of the time.

2. Scout First-> for ruins+Barbs (they are better than Warriors v. Barbs)

Is this confirmed (scouts better than warriors when fighting barbs)?

Edit: 100th post

 

[SeismoGraf]

I guess that scout - worker - settler will work best most of the time.

With the initial warrior, this is one unit of each type. In ascending order of cost 25, 70 and 90 hammers. Good intel and strong economy. Maybe this will become one of the bread and butter build orders.

I like how the new rules in Civ5 seem to make the opening much more interesting and highly dependant on the game settings, the civ and its UU and UA, the land around you and more factors.

Other decisions also appear to be more challenging and nuanced than in Civ4: what to reseach first, which tiles to assign your citizens to, where to expand, whether to construct an early building in the capital or not, etc.

 

[DeepQantas]

How about completely foregoing the early settler? Second city is going to make social policies more expensive.

Build a worker to boost your city. Then a monument to capitalize on cheap social policies. Tradition should help your single city even more. After that, scouts and an army to get to know your neighbors.

 

[rastak]

How about completely foregoing the early settler? Second city is going to make social policies more expensive.

Build a worker to boost your city. Then a monument to capitalize on cheap social policies. Tradition should help your single city even more. After that, scouts and an army to get to know your neighbors.

Very true about social policies. I guess if there is some prime real estate that could become contested it might be worth the hit to grab it early.

 

[ErichRommel]

Well there are a few options

1. Worker first->for Farms
2. Scout First-> for ruins+Barbs (they are better than Warriors v. Barbs)
3. Monument First->for faster border claiming/Social Policies

Scouts are particularly cheap, so I would guess at least one of them first.
Then Worker/Monument, depending on the goodness of your current/nearby tiles


The problem with Workers is that they are expensive, 70 compared to 25 for a Scout, or 35 for a Warrior.

Where did you get the info that scouts are better then warriors vs. Barbarians?

 

[craig123]

How about completely foregoing the early settler? Second city is going to make social policies more expensive.

Build a worker to boost your city. Then a monument to capitalize on cheap social policies. Tradition should help your single city even more.

I hadn't thought about that - certainly seems like a valid strategy.

After that, scouts and an army to get to know your neighbors.

Nice euphemism! Don't get to know them too well if you don't want a second city. (Having said that, puppet cities don't add to SP cost do they )

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Much of the strategy during your first few turns depend on many things, as in previous civ games. Workers and Scouts are always a good idea, but depending on your Civ an nearby hexes, each may be more or less important. I can actually see for Germany, it may be more important to get a second warrior out earlier than normal to capitalize on their Barbarian bonus, though whether it should be the first produced unit is another question.

Generally I think this would be optimal for each civ though.
America: Scout - Worker - Settler (+1 sight means you can explore faster)
Arabia: Worker - Scout - Settler (get some roads prebuilt to get that first trade route up and running)
Aztec: Warrior - Worker - Settler (culture gains from kills, start nailing Barbs)
China: Scout - Worker - Settler (no real benefit either way, but scouting is important)
Egypt: Worker - Scout - Settler (get your production tiles up to get ready for Wonder production)
England: Scout - Worker - Settler (find yourself a coastal city location sooner if your not already on one)
France: Monument - Scout - Worker - Settler (capitalize on your culture gains early)
Germany: Warrior - Worker - Settler (Your goal is barb stomping, scouts are weak, you should have an army of barbs to explore soon)
Greece: Scout - Worker - Settler (find City States ASAP)
India: Worker - Scout - Monument - Settler (India works best with less cities, get some culture flowing early instead)
Iroquois: Scout - Monument/Scout - Settler (Roads aren't as important unless you have very few forests)
Japan: Scout - Worker - Settler (again, no real benefit, but might help to find your first conquest)
Ottoman: Scout - Worker - Settler (find a coastal city location ASAP)
Persia: Monument - Scout - Worker - Settler (Get that early Golden Age sooner)
Rome: Scout - Worker - Settler - Monument (I mention post-settler because you want to get this built in Rome ASAP to capitalize on their ability, maybe even before the settler)
Russia: Scout - Worker - Settler (a resource huntin we go)
Siam: Scout - Worker - Settler (Find City States)
Songhai: Warrior - Worker - Settler(again, go barb smashing)
Babylon: Scout - Worker - Settler (maybe??? no idea what their special is)

Again, these are just generalizations, your situation may require a change in presidence. If England is already a coastal city you may want to forgo scouting for a few turns for example)

Interesting ideas. I'd say that France probably wants a second city more than they want a monument, though--get the benefit of another monument without having to build one.

 

[iop]

Interesting ideas. I'd say that France probably wants a second city more than they want a monument, though--get the benefit of another monument without having to build one.

Depends on how much culture the palace generates, since each additional city increases the SP cost by 30%.

If the palace produces 2 culture, you gain 50% culture for the second city, and 33% culture for the third city. Thus, you have a net gain of 20% culture for building a second city, but a net gain of 50% for the monument.

If the palace produces more culture, building additional cities is worse, if it produces less culture, building additional cities is better. Given that the monument requires no tech, the palace might actually not give any culture, which would make build order quite a bit more challenging.

However, with France being able to unlock the liberty tree faster than others, I'd probably try to get a second city set up quickly and beeline for Stonehenge if I was going for huge culture.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Depends on how much culture the palace generates, since each additional city increases the SP cost by 30%.

If the palace produces 2 culture, you gain 50% culture for the second city, and 33% culture for the third city. Thus, you have a net gain of 20% culture for building a second city, but a net gain of 50% for the monument.

If the palace produces more culture, building additional cities is worse, if it produces less culture, building additional cities is better.

However, with France being able to unlock the liberty tree faster than others, I'd probably try to get a second city set up quickly and beeline for Stonehenge if I was going for huge culture.

Yeah, true. Nobody will know anything for sure until we actually play the game for real, eh?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Where did you get the info that scouts are better then warriors vs. Barbarians?

Arioch's site
Scout 4 +100% v. Barb
Warrior 6


and Culture-> Golden Ages, Happiness does, so there is no point in Persia building an early monument.

 

[Szpilman]

Given how improving tiles generally only gets you one more yield, I'd think Scout -> Monument -> Worker to generally be more useful, since the earlier you can start adding that extra culture, the more you'll capitalize on the cheap SPs before you build your second city.

And two Scouts first might be even better, to double (or 50% more if using the Warrior as well) your findings of Natural Wonders (faster golden ages), barbarians (gold, promotions), City States (gold and diplomacy) and ancient ruins.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Yeah the extra culture might get you Better tiles (ie getting a Grassland+Wheat is just as effective as putting a farm on a blank Grassland.)

 

[iop]

Given how improving tiles generally only gets you one more yield, I'd think Scout -> Monument -> Worker to generally be more useful, since the earlier you can start adding that extra culture, the more you'll capitalize on the cheap SPs before you build your second city.

I agree. The 30% increased SP cost per city does hurt unless you're France or have Stonehenge.

 

[Wolle68]

Arioch's site
Scout 4 +100% v. Barb
Warrior 6

Where did you find that? This is what I found under scout in the units section:

Movement: 2; Strength: 4; Ranged Strength: 0; Cost: 25 hammers; Requires Resource: none

Technology: (none)

Abilities: Not slowed by rough terrain.

Notes: Looks like the Scout has access to promotions that increase sight range. It's not clear whether the correct Movement rate is 2 or 3; some screenshots show 2, and some show 3.​

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Where did you find that? This is what I found under scout in the units section:

Movement: 2; Strength: 4; Ranged Strength: 0; Cost: 25 hammers; Requires Resource: none

Technology: (none)

Abilities: Not slowed by rough terrain.

Notes: Looks like the Scout has access to promotions that increase sight range. It's not clear whether the correct Movement rate is 2 or 3; some screenshots show 2, and some show 3.​

Hm, I remember it having that bonus... maybe that was earlier. Oh well.. I guess Warrior if you want to bust barbs twice as fast, Scout if you want to find things (and you can use your 1 Warrior to bust barbs)