Vokarya's Workshop: Wonders

[hyko]

It's the same as the 'Anghkor Wat' city, which is at the same time a 'Wonder of the World'. Because the city is coincidental with the wonder.
Harappa is a lost part of the civilizing development. Not just that, it had urban developments way beyond that of its time.
What is called harappian civilization could also be called Indus Valley civilization or Dravidas (that's not a matter), in which Harappa was a city (or settlement if you will) with extraordinary circumstances and social advancement.
Yeah, sorry, just read a bit more... and Harappa wasnt the biggest and most developd city, but Mohenjo-Daro... so that could be the wonder...

 

[Rezca]

*edit* Never mind ^^:

 

[Vokarya]

I had an idea for expanding a Wonder effect to make it more useful.

The World Bank generates interest on your treasury each turn. This is currently controlled by a Python routine. I'm going to be updating it to include a cap of 500 gold/turn from the Bank.

I think this ability would be good to copy to Piazza San Marco and Global Stock Exchange. The Piazza would probably have the same 2% interest rate but a lower cap so it doesn't unbalance the middle game too much, while the GSE would get a higher rate and a higher cap, as appropriate for a Transhuman Era World Wonder. It would allow us to remove their current effects, as there are currently 13 Wonders that provide free buildings and 16 Wonders that increase the commerces of other buildings. This is overuse from my perspective.

However, I think it would be better to have the interest calculations implemented in the DLL with XML tags. I really believe that if we're doing an effect with straightforward calculation, that would be better without using Python. Python routines feel very tacked-on and circumvent much of the interactions with the rest of the code (example: World Bank interest not shown in the Financial Advisor).

We would need two tags:

• <iInterestPercent>: This building generates X percent interest on the treasury each turn. So <iInterestPercent>1</iInterestPercent> would generate 1% interest each turn.
• <iInterestMax>: This puts a cap on the interest that can be generated from this building. It would function like <iMaxDomesticConnectedCommerce> and <iMaxForeignConnectedCommerce>. It would give us a second knob that we could adjust to balance buildings.

I think the hardest part would be adding the interest income to the financial advisor and recalculating the interest income if a player gains or spends gold during their turn (trades, disbanding units, rushing).

Would this be possible to do? There's no hurry on this, but I think it is an idea with possibilities.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I had an idea for expanding a Wonder effect to make it more useful.

The World Bank generates interest on your treasury each turn. This is currently controlled by a Python routine. I'm going to be updating it to include a cap of 500 gold/turn from the Bank.

I think this ability would be good to copy to Piazza San Marco and Global Stock Exchange. The Piazza would probably have the same 2% interest rate but a lower cap so it doesn't unbalance the middle game too much, while the GSE would get a higher rate and a higher cap, as appropriate for a Transhuman Era World Wonder. It would allow us to remove their current effects, as there are currently 13 Wonders that provide free buildings and 16 Wonders that increase the commerces of other buildings. This is overuse from my perspective.

However, I think it would be better to have the interest calculations implemented in the DLL with XML tags. I really believe that if we're doing an effect with straightforward calculation, that would be better without using Python. Python routines feel very tacked-on and circumvent much of the interactions with the rest of the code (example: World Bank interest not shown in the Financial Advisor).

We would need two tags:

• <iInterestPercent>: This building generates X percent interest on the treasury each turn. So <iInterestPercent>1</iInterestPercent> would generate 1% interest each turn.
• <iInterestMax>: This puts a cap on the interest that can be generated from this building. It would function like <iMaxDomesticConnectedCommerce> and <iMaxForeignConnectedCommerce>. It would give us a second knob that we could adjust to balance buildings.

I think the hardest part would be adding the interest income to the financial advisor and recalculating the interest income if a player gains or spends gold during their turn (trades, disbanding units, rushing).

Would this be possible to do? There's no hurry on this, but I think it is an idea with possibilities.

Not really easy but probably doable; I'll see what I can do.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Vokarya, just to make sure I understand: should the interest rate be additive? I mean, if I both have Piazza San Marco and World Bank, I get 4% (2%+2%) and the higher cap, correct?

 

[Vokarya]

Vokarya, just to make sure I understand: should the interest rate be additive? I mean, if I both have Piazza San Marco and World Bank, I get 4% (2%+2%) and the higher cap, correct?

I was thinking each building would be calculated individually and ignoring other interest-bearing buildings, then add the interest incomes together and lastly add them to the current treasury. The interest rates would be effectively cumulative, but the caps would not be if you had buildings with different interest rates.

Example:
Say Piazza San Marco had 10% interest and a cap of 2, and World Bank had 5% interest and a cap of 10.

With 100 gold in treasury, you would get:

• 2 gold from Piazza San Marco (100 * 10% = 10 gold, lowered to cap of 2)
• 5 gold from World Bank (100 * 5% = 5 gold, less than cap of 10)
• Total 7 gold, less than the caps added together.

With 500 gold in treasury, you would get:

• 2 gold from Piazza San Marco (500 * 10% = 50 gold, lowered to cap of 2)
• 10 gold from World Bank (500 * 5% = 25 gold, lowered to cap of 10)
• Total 12 gold, equal to the caps added together.

You shouldn't be able to use unused cap space from one building to get more money out of another.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

on the interest, to stop the rushing/disbanding units distortion. You just set the calculation at the gold balance at the START of the turn.

Then when you rush/disband/take cities/trade techs etc, it just raises/lowers the treasury balance.

At end of turn, you calculate the building effects, gt a closing balance and apply interest to that.

Start new turn, begin again with actions.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I was thinking each building would be calculated individually and ignoring other interest-bearing buildings, then add the interest incomes together and lastly add them to the current treasury. The interest rates would be effectively cumulative, but the caps would not be if you had buildings with different interest rates.

Example:
Say Piazza San Marco had 10% interest and a cap of 2, and World Bank had 5% interest and a cap of 10.

With 100 gold in treasury, you would get:

• 2 gold from Piazza San Marco (100 * 10% = 10 gold, lowered to cap of 2)
• 5 gold from World Bank (100 * 5% = 5 gold, less than cap of 10)
• Total 7 gold, less than the caps added together.

With 500 gold in treasury, you would get:

• 2 gold from Piazza San Marco (500 * 10% = 50 gold, lowered to cap of 2)
• 10 gold from World Bank (500 * 5% = 25 gold, lowered to cap of 10)
• Total 12 gold, equal to the caps added together.

You shouldn't be able to use unused cap space from one building to get more money out of another.

It looks like it was easier than I thought. I've made it work, I also added it to the Financial Advisor.
I think I still need to remove current python code and I need to list interest rate/cap in civilopedia.
Also, do you have any suggestion for those values?

 

[Vokarya]

It looks like it was easier than I thought. I've made it work, I also added it to the Financial Advisor.
I think I still need to remove current python code and I need to list interest rate/cap in civilopedia.
Also, do you have any suggestion for those values?

The values I was thinking are:

• Piazza San Marco: 2% interest, 100 gold cap
  • Also delete the free Markets and the +10% gold
• World Bank: 2% interest, 250 gold cap
  • Probably lower the gold to all cities to 5% or delete it entirely, but I'm not sure on this one
• Global Stock Exchange: 5% interest, 250 gold cap
  • Also delete the free E-Banks and the +3 gold from E-Banks

That should do for a starting point. I really like the idea of applying this to Piazza San Marco and giving it an ability that is unique for its time, but I don't want it to totally unbalance the Medieval/Renaissance Era.

 

[Kepling]

This is very minor, but I'm going to throw this out there for consideration.

I was playing around with the different maps and noticed that some of them will spawn desert and tundra/ice close enough together that they can be within a single city's range. Though it's very unlikely to pull it off, there is a chance that someone could have a holy city with both Las Vegas Strip and Snowcastle of Kemi in it giving a 200% bonus to money on top of other bonuses.

My solution is to make it so that those 2 wonders can't be built in the same city in the same way that Copernicus' Observatory, Isaac Newton's College, and Leonardo's Workshop can't be built in the same city.

 

[<Nexus>]

This is very minor, but I'm going to throw this out there for consideration.

I was playing around with the different maps and noticed that some of them will spawn desert and tundra/ice close enough together that they can be within a single city's range. Though it's very unlikely to pull it off, there is a chance that someone could have a holy city with both Las Vegas Strip and Snowcastle of Kemi in it giving a 200% bonus to money on top of other bonuses.

My solution is to make it so that those 2 wonders can't be built in the same city in the same way that Copernicus' Observatory, Isaac Newton's College, and Leonardo's Workshop can't be built in the same city.

What map size do you play?

 

[Rezca]

This is very minor, but I'm going to throw this out there for consideration.

I was playing around with the different maps and noticed that some of them will spawn desert and tundra/ice close enough together that they can be within a single city's range. Though it's very unlikely to pull it off, there is a chance that someone could have a holy city with both Las Vegas Strip and Snowcastle of Kemi in it giving a 200% bonus to money on top of other bonuses.

My solution is to make it so that those 2 wonders can't be built in the same city in the same way that Copernicus' Observatory, Isaac Newton's College, and Leonardo's Workshop can't be built in the same city.

If the odds of it happening are low, then what's the problem?

 

[Arakhor]

Well, there's clearly a potential problem, but the issue is whether it's frequent and/or game-breaking enough to merit being fixed.

 

[Vokarya]

This is very minor, but I'm going to throw this out there for consideration.

I was playing around with the different maps and noticed that some of them will spawn desert and tundra/ice close enough together that they can be within a single city's range. Though it's very unlikely to pull it off, there is a chance that someone could have a holy city with both Las Vegas Strip and Snowcastle of Kemi in it giving a 200% bonus to money on top of other bonuses.

My solution is to make it so that those 2 wonders can't be built in the same city in the same way that Copernicus' Observatory, Isaac Newton's College, and Leonardo's Workshop can't be built in the same city.

First of all, SnowCastle doesn't just have a terrain requirement, it has a latitude requirement. SnowCastle needs to be built at a latitude of no less than 55 degrees. This means that a lot of squares in the city vicinity will be tundra, which is very difficult terrain to build a large city in until you start terraforming in the Transhuman Era, which is when I allow things to get weird.

Second, I'm planning to rip out SnowCastle's gold bonus and replace it with a bonus modeled after Great Mosque of Djenne, giving +2 commerce to tundra and ice tiles in the city radius when it is built. SnowCastle has an ability that is big but I don't consider it to be truly World-Wonder-class. The new ability isn't that big either, but I think it's more interesting.

 

[Vokarya]

I've put together a list of Wonder changes that I have settled on. I have coded 6 of these; I still have to do Reichstag and Carhenge. Carhenge will be easy; Reichstag might take a little work.

• Sun Tzu's Art of War
  • Remove -50% cost to upgrade units. I want to add this ability to Venetian Arsenal and Willow Run, and don't want this stacking.
  • Add +50% military production. It keeps +50% to Great Generals and so gives you one global ability and then +50% military production as a bonus to the building city.
  • Shorten name to Art of War. Civ4 got away from naming Wonders after people with the addition of the Great Person system. I'd like to follow the example where I can.
• Venetian Arsenal
  • Reduce naval production to +200%.
  • Add -50% cost to upgrade units. This gives Venetian Arsenal a more World-Wonder feel. It might not be enough.
• Magellan's Voyage
  • Remove the +2 XP to Naval units. I think Trafalgar Square and Magellan's Voyage are too much in concert and I would prefer Trafalgar to be the wonder of naval combat while Magellan handles discovery. Magellan can keep the Maneuvering I promotion; this is only meaningful until Steam Ships take over and no longer need Maneuvering's -1 terrain cost.
  • Remove the +10 science. I'm fine with the +10 commerce. It can represent additional oceanic trade spurred by the expedition.
  • Add Python routine: Reveals all unowned coast and ocean tiles on completion. This should automatically allow you the +1 movement bonus for circumnavigation if no one has achieved it yet. You can start trying for the bonus at Optics (Caravels) but this can give you another route. It will also take care of exploring the arctic nooks and crannies if your map script has them.
• Reichstag
  • Add Golden Age does not trigger if you are in a Golden Age.
  • Add Golden Age only lasts 2 turns per city of the new vassal. These changes will rein in Reichstag's power.
• Women's Suffrage
  • Remove -25% war weariness. This was its ability in Civ1-3, but I think Mt. Rushmore handles it better.
  • Add Python routine: Generates a random Great Person on completion. This will make it a much more valuable wonder.
  • Change name to Universal Suffrage. Civ1 and 2 used Women's Suffrage. Civ3 changed the name to Universal Suffrage and it stayed that way up to Civ6. 6 is calling it just Suffrage. I think Universal Suffrage works better.
• Willow Run
  • Reduce air production to +100%.
  • Add -50% cost to upgrade units. This is comparable to Venetian Arsenal. It will not stack as Venetian Arsenal goes obsolete (Assembly Line) before Willow Run is available (Aviation).
• SnowCastle of Kemi
  • Remove +100% gold.
  • Add Python routine borrowed from Great Mosque of Djenne: +2 commerce on all Tundra and Ice tiles in city vicinity. This will make it interesting. If this is not enough, we could extend the radius of the effect.
• Carhenge
  • Remove free Recycling Centers. This ability is overused on Wonders.
  • Add Python routine: Adds strength of mechanical units (bMechanical is true) killed in combat as gold. This ability comes from Platyping's Carhenge. I first adapted it for Lascaux Caves. I'd like to bring it back here too. I'm choosing strength as the factor because I think production cost would be too influenced by gamespeed.

 

[Arakhor]

Those sound great, Vokarya.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Snow Castle of Kemi, I believe it should be +1 gold to all Tundra/Ice tiles in Empire.

One city, would be too small, and it would make it a true World Wonder worth pursuing.

On Venetian Arsenal and Willow run, shouldn't that be reduced upgrade costs for the respective unit classes, ie Venetian - Naval units
Willow run - Aviation units

NOT ALL units across the empire, as it currently now sounds.

They are wonders relating to specific unit classes.

Could you add an experience bonus to both of these wonders, or a 'free' promotion, allowing 100% experience

Art of War, relates to ALL classes, no problem there.

 

[<Nexus>]

Snow Castle of Kemi, I believe it should be +1 gold to all Tundra/Ice tiles in Empire.

One city, would be too small, and it would make it a true World Wonder worth pursuing.

I agree. Reminds me of Machu Picchu that that gives a huuuuge bonus compared to this.

 

[Kepling]

For reference I usually play massive maps, but it depends on the map script if you could even pull it off. Since Kemi's gold bonus is being removed it's a non-issue now.

In regard to the Reichstag, many updates ago I had a game where I stacked up 100's of turns of golden ages through the exploit in a marathon speed game. Since then the vassalage rate was adjusted so it's not as bad now, but in my current game it still has my vassals dropping and rejoining often enough to keep me in a virtually eternal golden age. If Vokarya can get it set up like described above I think it should be a whole lot more tame than it currently is.

Finally a minor observation about Machu Picchu. I have a diplomatic/espionage/cultural heavy play style, and in my current game one of my neighbors built Machu Picchu. At first my culture consumed the improvement, then later the city that contained the wonder. It's not really a exploit, just feels weird play wise when I have the improvement but not the wonder.

 

[Vokarya]

Snow Castle of Kemi, I believe it should be +1 gold to all Tundra/Ice tiles in Empire.

One city, would be too small, and it would make it a true World Wonder worth pursuing.

On Venetian Arsenal and Willow run, shouldn't that be reduced upgrade costs for the respective unit classes, ie Venetian - Naval units
Willow run - Aviation units

NOT ALL units across the empire, as it currently now sounds.

They are wonders relating to specific unit classes.

Could you add an experience bonus to both of these wonders, or a 'free' promotion, allowing 100% experience

Art of War, relates to ALL classes, no problem there.

Actually, I can't do most of these things. <iUnitUpgradePriceModifier> is the XML tag that adjusts prices. It only allows one global number, and can't be adjusted in any other way. (The XML allows a good number of effects, but if it isn't there, then it has to be either mimicked with a Python routine, which is extremely messy, or added to the DLL, which is beyond my abilities.)

I don't actually want Venetian Arsenal or Willow Run to give promotions. I want to distinguish between PRODUCTION buildings that simply produce units faster and TRAINING buildings that give XP or free promotions. Drydock and Naval Yard have both, which I don't particularly like, but there aren't very many other sources for naval XP so they have to stay. Stables is also messy for me; I think this should be a production building and Knight's Stable should be the XP booster.

I would like to see how SnowCastle plays before I expand it. I can't actually have tiles produce gold. Tiles produce YIELDS, which covers food, production, and commerce. The commerce yield is then divided into COMMERCES, which covers gold, science, culture, and espionage.