Yugoslav Partisans

[CurtSibling]

Some observations I find useful at this stage of scen development...

I would consider using generic units to represent obscure weapons, etc. Over-detail in terms of tanks and infantry can become a burden, IMO.

Best to concentrate on the most useful types of unit for each faction/civ, and consider what task is most suitable for each unit.

No point in having a ton of infantry types, when they all do the same thing...Unless some are non-buildable flavour units.

Hope you don't mind my barging in, but I find locking aspects down at this stage, saves tears later!

 

[Patine]

@McMonkey: In Gapetit's ToT redux of the old Barbarossa scenario (which should be posted in the Modified Scenario Workshop somewhere), there's a greyish tank near the bottom of the units.bmp file with a hybrid Bulgarian/Hungarian/Romanian flagshield that's labelled "Turan Light Tank," but I have no idea how recent that unit's graphics are.

 

[McMonkey]

@Curt
I appreciate the advice and take it on board. The thing is now with 127 unit slots it is possible to indulge in a little bit of luxury when it comes to the units. Most of the Infantry types will represent specific Brigades, Divisions or generic units from a Corps or Army. I'm constantly developing the units.bmp, replacing unnecessary units with more vital ones. For example, last night at work I added an Albanian Partisan, (Croatian) Bosniak Militia, altered the appearance of the (Italian) Albanian Militia & Italian Partisan. This was done at the expense of some superfluous Italian, German, Croatian & Russian units. With so many quality unit graphics available it is tempting to try and squeeze them all in (IE having three types of the same unit - one with rifle, one with MP40 and another with MG42) but it is a bit pointless and I'm sacrificing these duplicate slots to include more pertinent units.

It is helpful that a lot of the armour and aircraft of Italy, Germany and Czechoslovakia was used by several civs and I have mostly left of the flags/badges so they can be given to multiple armies. I was keen to include at least one Hungarian built vehicle as they had a really interesting range of home produced vehicles (mostly licence produced variants of Swedish and Czech vehicles) and the generic Lt vz38 can stand in for the Toldi and Turan. I think the Nimrod SPAA is a fascinating vehicle but can't really justify a slot for it. However the Zrinyi is unique and useful enough to warrant an inclusion if I can procure one. I may try and squeeze in the Hetzer somewhere too as this would have been used by Germany & Hungary and is very similar to one of the Romanian tank hunters.

One concept I'm pondering is whether to replace the Allied Civ with Romania. As well as making the map more colourful and interesting it would allow me to give the Soviet army (along with the Bulgarians & Romanians) as well as the British and Balkan Air Force to the Partisans. Trying to replicate the Red Army's campaign in the southern Balkans, Romania/Hungary and the British landings is going to take considerable effort in terms of events & testing. By merging the Allied civ with the Partisans I alleviate this huge burden and also make the final stages of the scenario much more interesting with the player controlling loads of new and varied units in sweeping all arms combat across parts of the map that were previously out of the Partisans reach. The only slight issue I can see is with the city flags which will all show up as the Yugoslav Communist banner, though I see this as a minor anomaly compared with the gameplay benefits. It will also allow me to create some huge German counter attacks in Hungary to add a bit of spice to the final stages of the game.

@Patine
I've had a look. Is it Petite's Barbarossa mod you're referring to? I can see what appears to be a Czech LT vz35 with a cool Romanian/Hungarian/Bulgarian combined flag. I'm using this unit already (minus the flag) as it can be used by these nations as well as be captured by the Partisans.

 

[techumseh]

I think CS may have a point. While 127 unit slots is very welcome, there should be a balance. Too many units can be confusing to the player, who must spend lots of time looking up stats of unfamiliar units.

I'm curious about the scope of the scenario. Do you intend to include the Soviet Balkan offensive into Romania and Bulgaria and the British landing in Greece? Or the Soviet campaign in Hungary? These are far afield from the Yugoslav partisan war. Tito's partisans liberated Yugoslavia pretty much single handed, with only a brief incursion by the Red Army. Perhaps I misunderstand, but I suggest keeping it focused on the guerrilla war in Yugoslavia, so as to keep it manageable.

 

[McMonkey]

I'm still working on the concept but the scenario will be primarily focussed on the Partisan war in the 1941 to 1944 period. 1945 will be more of a mopping up operation with the aid of Soviet and Allied troops (including their new Bulgarian & Romanian allies). Obviously I need to work out victory conditions or the Partisans might as well wait just lay low and wait for outside help (like the Chetniks without the collaboration). Basically I want to make the first 2-3 years a savage war of survival, moving around the Partisan forces, trying to gather weapons and recruits. If you can survive this the reward will be the end campaign of liberation with the assistance of the Allies. Fail to survive this early period and the game will be over. I will probably base the Soviet intervention on the progress of the Partisans in liberating their own country and in doing so tying down German units that would otherwise be used against the Soviet Union.

I have to say that I disagree with the number of different units. Most of us are WWII buffs and will have a fair idea of the potency of various tanks and aircraft. When it comes to infantry type units it will be relatively obvious which units are militia types, which are your regulars and which are elite types (Paratroopers/SS/Guards etc...). One of the things that attracted me to this scenario topic in the first place was the huge variety of potential units from a host of nations, many of which have rarely been seen in a Civ2 scenario. Learning a little about these factions and familiarising yourself with the stats should be a pro not a con.

 

[Patine]

McMonkey, what civ will control Enver Hoxha's Albanian Communist Partisans (however few of them may appear): the Yugoslav Partisan Player, the Allied Player, Barbarians hex-edited into alliance with the Yugoslavs (such hex-editing alliances of Barbarians to Player Civ's does work, I've used it (in reverse) to force a permanent state of alliance between the Neutral/Communist Partisans and every civ BUT the Japanese in my EotRS scenario)?

 

[McMonkey]

The Macedonian, Slovenian & Albanian Partisans will all come under the control of Tito. Although not strictly historically accurate in terms of leadership they were all fighting the same enemy and as they did not fight each other I see no reason not to make them all human controlled. The problematic faction is the Royalist Chetniks who fought with and against everyone. They will basically be controlled by whichever Civ is in control of a particular region or be Barbarians.

 

[Tanelorn]

"Macedonian".

 

[Patine]

*post self-deleted*

 

[Tanelorn]

Well, anyway, that got me spurred to make these guys, call them what you will.
Their headgear must be derived from Ciaran's work somehow I think.

I have known and worked with (very) few of "them others", they are just normal, ok people. When there is work to be done there is no use talking politics.
I could quote geneticists, like Cavalli-Sforza, but not being an expert my impression is that Balkan people are much closer to each other than the propaganda(s) say. It is not a race issue, and race doesn't make you better or worse than anybody anyway I believe.
Still, I find it amusing.

-Edit-
Bonus:

 

[McMonkey]

I'm just going with the information I have gathered without any agenda: People's Liberation Army of Macedonia

Thanks for the units. Those will do nicely!

 

[gapetit]

 

[McMonkey]

I have taken a little break from work on this scenario. Its been a busy month or so with trips to Andorra and Vienna disrupting progress. This past week I have been enjoying playing The Korean War and Imperialism 1870. I plan to start up work again this weekend (24 hours in work with - hopefully- not too much else to do). The map is finished, cities placed and the unit file decided. Of course there will be tweaks as development goes on, but the foundations are set.

Next up is drawing up a clear plan about unit numbers, events, objectives and how to build up the Partisans numbers as the scenario progresses. It's going to be complicated to balance, but I'm up for the challenge. I'm hoping to restrict the number of units as much as possible so that the large map does not get overrun. I plan to restrict unit production and create most via events so that I can keep things under control. Each unit will be precious and keeping them alive will be key to success!

 

[Patine]

I was wondering (and worried) if this had been forgotten or not. I'm glad to see the silence on it was just a break and not quietly shelving it. I think the idea might have great potential, and I've found, with the Korean War, that having all of your units, except maybe some low-powered base infantry, be event-generated creates a VERY unique feel from the more "industrial military build-up" type scenarios, and leads to very different strategies and tactics in that regard. I look forward to seeing this scenario when it's complete.

 

[McMonkey]

Thanks Pat. Working out the details of how this scenario will work is giving me some headaches. I think I'm going to have to build it to a certain point and then playtest to see how the balance is and tweak it from there. Obviously I need to have a solid plan to work from, but there are so many variables that I won't be sure until I actually start playing it. I just need to crack on with placing improvements and units for now. I really miss Civ City!!!

 

[McMonkey]

This is probably a really dumb question, but I genuinely can't work out what the C & U numbers indicate on the main game screen (Status bar, underneath population and to the left of the date.

 

[Patine]

You're not the only one wondering about that.

 

[tootall_2012]

You are probably referring to the "City/unit overview" view feature from TOTPP, which tells you how many cities/units you have under your control.

You can turn off the feature, when starting TOT with the TOTPP.exe by simply unchecking the "City/unit overview" box situated in the Features/Modifications section.

 

[McMonkey]

Thanks. That makes sense! I think it's quite a handy addition, it just slipped in there without me noticing!

 

[McMonkey]

I have been working out what to do with Goody Huts. Thankfully there is William Keenan's indispensable Barbarian Paper to guide me along. As the huts are there for all Civs to take I decided the most appropriate units to spawn would be the various Chetniks who fought for and against almost everyone. I'm going to remove them from all areas of the map where the Serbs were not an ethnic force and leave the bulk of them in Serbia, Bosnia and Montenegro.

This should give the initial uprising a good degree of randomisation. I will spawn a few units at the beginning of the game in a random pattern and some units at set locations. These will then need to go around gathering strength from the huts before they can attack major towns. These towns will then event reward heavier units (mortars, machineguns, artillery and possibly even a few tanks) to the Partisans who will also gradually turn away from their dependence on Chetnik units (who will be become an Axis ally). I may give the Chetniks a high shield value so that it is economical to disband them to build Partisan units and complete the split.