OTAKUjbski
TK421
Barrage ... is it worth it? :suicide:For starters:
- I'm using the latest Bhruic Unofficial 3.13 BtS patch & supplement.
- My math is based on World Builder tests and this Collateral Damage Calculator originally posted by VoiceOfUnreason here.
I have until just recently used the Barrage I, II & III promotions without any detailed consideration or examination of their effect.
After running a couple tests and comparisons, I've convinced myself the Barrage promotions are broken and worthless.
I'll start with two simple examples:
Trebuchets, Macemen vs Longbowmen
This is a situation I often find myself in. Let's go to the extreme and say I'm dealing with Sitting Bull, who has a stack of Drill I, CG3 Longbowmen defending his city on flat land.
On my side of the fence, all of my units start with lvl 4 experience (3 promotions), and the city's defenses are already reduced to 0%.
The Macemen are all given CR3. The Trebuchets essentially have the choice of City Raider (CR1, CR2, CR3) or Barrage (B1, B2, B3) or unpromoted (lvl1) ...
Usually, I'd promote some of the Trebs to Barrage III and suicide them to more severely damage the defending stack -- ensuring my city raiders a higher chance of survival once one or two of the best defenders are knocked down.
But let's look at some of the numbers now ...
Promoted Trebuchet vs Drill I, CG3 Longbowman: (Combat Odds)
lvl1 Trebuchet vs collaterally damaged Drill I, CG3 Longbowman: (base LB Strength, Combat Odds)
CR3 Maceman vs collaterally damaged Drill I, CG3 Longbowman: (base LB Strength, Combat Odds)
Artillery, Infantry vs Mechanized InfantryOn my side of the fence, all of my units start with lvl 4 experience (3 promotions), and the city's defenses are already reduced to 0%.
The Macemen are all given CR3. The Trebuchets essentially have the choice of City Raider (CR1, CR2, CR3) or Barrage (B1, B2, B3) or unpromoted (lvl1) ...
Usually, I'd promote some of the Trebs to Barrage III and suicide them to more severely damage the defending stack -- ensuring my city raiders a higher chance of survival once one or two of the best defenders are knocked down.
But let's look at some of the numbers now ...
Promoted Trebuchet vs Drill I, CG3 Longbowman: (Combat Odds)
- lvl1: 18.6%
- B1: 18.6%
- B2: 18.6%
- B3: 18.6%
- CR1: 27.2%
- CR2: 51.5%
- CR3: 74.7%
lvl1 Trebuchet vs collaterally damaged Drill I, CG3 Longbowman: (base LB Strength, Combat Odds)
- Damaged once by lvl1: 5.5, 22.3%
- Damaged once by B1: 5.5, 22.3%
- Damaged once by B2: 5.4, 23.4%
- Damaged once by B3: 5.3, 36.5%
- Damaged twice by lvl1: 5.0, 39.7%
- Damaged twice by B1: 5.0, 39.7%
- Damaged twice by B2: 4.8, 42.5%
- Damaged twice by B3: 4.7, 44.0%
CR3 Maceman vs collaterally damaged Drill I, CG3 Longbowman: (base LB Strength, Combat Odds)
- Undamaged: 6.0, 28%
- Damaged once by lvl1: 5.5, 57.6%
- Damaged once by B1: 5.5, 57.6%
- Damaged once by B2: 5.4, 59.1%
- Damaged once by B3: 5.3, 59.9%
- Damaged twice by lvl1: 5.0, 63.4%
- Damaged twice by B1: 5.0, 63.4%
- Damaged twice by B2: 4.8, 77.2%
- Damaged twice by B3: 4.7, 78.6%
This time, only the Artillery are promoted (up to 3 times) and have the same choice of remaining unpromoted or following either the City Raider or Barrage promotion line.
Promoted Artillery vs lvl1 Mechanized Infantry (Combat Odds)
lvl1 Artillery vs collaterally damaged lvl1 Mechanized Infantry: (base MI Strength, Combat Odds)
lvl1 Infantry vs collaterally damaged lvl1 Mechanized Infantry: (base MI Strength, Combat Odds)
Promoted Artillery vs lvl1 Mechanized Infantry (Combat Odds)
- lvl1: 6.1%
- B1: 6.1%
- B2: 6.1%
- B3: 8.2%
- CR1: 17.3%
- CR2: 37.9%
- CR3: 65.0%
lvl1 Artillery vs collaterally damaged lvl1 Mechanized Infantry: (base MI Strength, Combat Odds)
- Damaged once by lvl1: 29.8, 7.6%
- Damaged once by B1: 29.4, 7.9%
- Damaged once by B2: 29.1, 8.2%
- Damaged once by B3: 28.8, 15.1%
- Damaged twice by lvl1: 27.5, 16.8%
- Damaged twice by B1: 26.9, 17.7%
- Damaged twice by B2: 26.2, 18.5%
- Damaged twice by B3: 25.6, 19.4%
lvl1 Infantry vs collaterally damaged lvl1 Mechanized Infantry: (base MI Strength, Combat Odds)
- Undamaged: 32.0, 26.4%
- Damaged once by lvl1: 29.8, 30.4%
- Damaged once by B1: 29.4, 31.0%
- Damaged once by B2: 29.1, 31.8%
- Damaged once by B3: 28.8, 44.7%
- Damaged twice by lvl1: 27.5, 47.7%
- Damaged twice by B1: 26.9, 49.0%
- Damaged twice by B2: 26.2, 50.4%
- Damaged twice by B3: 25.6, 52.2%
Conclusions & Observations:
In the first example, promoting to CR3 increases the first Trebuchet's chance of survival by +56.1% while promoting to B3 doesn't increase that chance at all.
In the second example, the increased Combat Odds due to B3 versus Gunpowder is laughable at best.
Similarly, a single CR3 Trebuchet's lvl1 collateral damage increases the chances of a CR3 Maceman surviving by +29.6% while a B3 Trebuchet's collateral damage increases the chances of a CR3 Maceman surving by +31.9% (only +2.3% better).
In both cases, the first three B3 siege units had <50% chance of survival, while all CR3 siege units had >65% chance of survival.
In the case of the Trebuchet, lvl1 and Barrage I both had the same effect.
----
Basically, Barrage doesn't do crap on siege engines. It does a modicum of damage which is far from accurately represented by the misleading "+20%, +30% and +50%" claims made by their tooltips.
By comparison, the City Raider promotions give an overall considerably better chance of survival for the stack -- particularly the siege engines.
It's also worth noting Drill II completely nullifies the already minimal effects of Barrage I, and Drill III completely nullifies Barrage II and even 10% of Barrage III!
NOTE: I haven't yet run this test on Tanks, but I presume a similar concusion will be made when said Tanks don't already start with good Combat Odds.
In the second example, the increased Combat Odds due to B3 versus Gunpowder is laughable at best.
Similarly, a single CR3 Trebuchet's lvl1 collateral damage increases the chances of a CR3 Maceman surviving by +29.6% while a B3 Trebuchet's collateral damage increases the chances of a CR3 Maceman surving by +31.9% (only +2.3% better).
In both cases, the first three B3 siege units had <50% chance of survival, while all CR3 siege units had >65% chance of survival.
In the case of the Trebuchet, lvl1 and Barrage I both had the same effect.
----
Basically, Barrage doesn't do crap on siege engines. It does a modicum of damage which is far from accurately represented by the misleading "+20%, +30% and +50%" claims made by their tooltips.
By comparison, the City Raider promotions give an overall considerably better chance of survival for the stack -- particularly the siege engines.
It's also worth noting Drill II completely nullifies the already minimal effects of Barrage I, and Drill III completely nullifies Barrage II and even 10% of Barrage III!
NOTE: I haven't yet run this test on Tanks, but I presume a similar concusion will be made when said Tanks don't already start with good Combat Odds.
----
What say you?
Is the Barrage promotion broken on Siege Engines?
========
Intrathread links (ToC):
Barrage vs CR (Trial 1: Cats & Swords vs Longbows)
