Catipulation

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Civ4Rocks

Chieftain
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May 12, 2006
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I personaly love catipulation, but sometimes I can't get someone to catipulate and it really bugs me. In my last game, the vikings and others declared war on me, and after the initial attacks, I built up a my army (my economy was the best by far), and started going on the attack. Eventually I made peace with all but Ragnar and his colony, Stalin. I waited for a long time to take more than a few cities because I didn't want him to catipulate to the Germans or the Holy Romans, who were both 10-15% stronger than me. Eventually I surpassed my Allies in strenghth, and started taking his cities, but he didn't ever catipulate! :(. I had two vassels already, and he was being attacked by the Holy Romans and me, both of whom were many times stronger. Are there some leaders that just don't catipulate do to pride? (This has happaned before with Gehngas Khan, and others) Or does it have something to do with his colony? What can I do to make sure they catipulate to me? I hate having to destroy them.
 
Well how many cities does he have left? I once had a war with Shaka, and he wouldn't capitulate until he was left with one city. My advice is to keep capturing his cities and after each capture, see if he will capitulate or not.
 
They all catapult in the end.
 
it's because of his colony. Civ's won't capitulate until they're much weaker than all the other civs, and a colony will be so weak that even after losing half his cities he's still much stronger than his colony, so he thinks he's doing fine :lol:
 
pi-r8 said:
it's because of his colony. Civ's won't capitulate until they're much weaker than all the other civs, and a colony will be so weak that even after losing half his cities he's still much stronger than his colony, so he thinks he's doing fine :lol:
Click to expand...

More like:

1. Weaker than the average of all civs
2. Modified by war success
3. And whether or not they're a "land target" to another civ warring with them
4. And your power is higher by enough
5. And they get a power "boost" for having a vassal, even as that vassal kills the average.

So basically it's as you say - very very difficult to capitulate a civ with a vassal unless you're playing below your level and just blowing people the #@% out. Capitulation is very convoluted and crappy.

Edit: As NarutoAvatarDBZ points out, leaders are weighted toward capping or not in the XML as well. It's a good point. Unlike the above you can't control it, but you can certainly plan for it.
 
Also, every leader has a certain Capitulation weight. It makes leaders like Loius and Catherine easy to capitulate, while Sitting Bull, Ghenghis Khan, and Napoleon fight to the bitter end. What you saw Temujin's resistance was defineteyl not coincidental.

I'm not sure about Ragnar and Stalin's levels. I also don't have the chart, so someone who does should come and post it...
 
I coulda sworn they had to be within the land and population % that is required to keep them. In other words, they have to be <50% your land/population before they will capitulate. I could be very wrong, it just seemed like that was the threshold at which civs started allowing capitulation in my games.
 
He wouldn't capitulate even when he had just one city left, and 3 men in it. his colony had 4 cities though. He was being land-attack threatened by two people who were many, many times stronger (including me). War-success? Is that his history? He had fought many wars, starting most, and captured several cities, also, he had been the most powerful player at one point. Maybe if I had attacked the colony... Is there a way to get the colony to break away from him? (without attacking it?) An ordinary vassel would have already, since Stalin was now stronger than Ragnar, but Stalin didn't, I guess cause he was a colony.
 
Some just will not capitulate. Not sure why, but some just won't. Thresholds don't mean anything if the leader simply will not capitulate.
 
blitzkrieg1980 said:
I coulda sworn they had to be within the land and population % that is required to keep them. In other words, they have to be <50% your land/population before they will capitulate. I could be very wrong, it just seemed like that was the threshold at which civs started allowing capitulation in my games.
Click to expand...

No, it has more to do with your power rating than your territory size. Some will start considering if your power levelis twice theirs. Of course that doesn't always mean anyhting with some civs. I found the Dutch was quite stubborn when it comes to that too, and Churchill was surprisingly easy. He of all leaders I figured would fight to the bitter end, what with his famous "We shall not surrender" speech. Not so, he caved after losing only three cities, and of course a whole bunch of units. He unleashed his stack of Redcoats against my Infantry horde. Needless to say they didn't do very well.
 
blitzkrieg1980 said:
Really? Can't they just break away again once they've rebuilt their army a bit then?
Click to expand...

No, once they capitulate they're pretty much stuck with you. There's a formula that's used to determine whether they can break free, but it has nothing to do with power rating. It's all about territory and population. I can't remember how it works right now though. I think you might be confusing the formula that allows them to go free with the possibility of them capitulating in the first place.
 
I take no prisoners. I hate capitulation, because then instead of them being destroyed, they are simply weakened. Vassals can still win the game.
 
Willem said:
No, once they capitulate they're pretty much stuck with you. There's a formula that's used to determine whether they can break free, but it has nothing to do with power rating. It's all about territory and population. I can't remember how it works right now though. I think you might be confusing the formula that allows them to go free with the possibility of them capitulating in the first place.
Click to expand...

I know. My previous post said "i thought they had to at least be <50% your land and <50% your population to capitulate in the first place. Then someone else said it was half of the power to capitulate.

Now, I'm saying "but if they're over 50% your land and 50% your population but 1/2 your power, when they capitulate (due to having half ur power), they can come right out of capitulation 10 turns later (because they have >50% your land and >50% your population).
 
i think their land/population ratio to yours has something to do with it. I remember playing an OCC game on the earth map as france, and people wouldnt capitulate to me until they were at 1 city, even when i was blowing them out
 
Mechaerik, do you really not capitulate anyone? I think its a much better alternative to actually destroying them. If you have trouble keeping them than you probably are not going to win the game anyway - it probably means you are losing a war quite badly, as thats the only way they would escape (by you losing enough cities to get them above the 50% threshold). They only benefit you - they can help you fight, and you don't have to lose so many men fighting them to the very end.

I'm pretty sure they have to be under the threshold to capitulate, but it also has a lot to to with power ratios. In my game though I was 5.5 times stronger than Ragnar, and he only had one city left with 3 men weakened by bombardment.
 
He means they can still win the Space Race or a Culture victory, and you can't invade them because they are your permanent vassals. I just shoot for a Conquest/Domination win in this case though...no reason to give them the chance at life.

My shortest war was literally moving my stack two tiles into Darius I's small country and then bombarding his city and capturing it. He literally gave up the turn afterwards, and I liberated the city. It lasted 4 turns. Granted, he only had 4 cities and all but 8 of his military units were in the city I just captured...
 
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