Dealing with SOD's, supply, and generally reducing everyone's reliance on war

Gangor

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For this post I have taken some ideas from the forum, but some are also my own. Appologies for not giving credits, but I can't remember where the ideas came from.

Proposal

Any number of units can be organised into an army, which acts as one unit

However with diminishing returns. The strongest unit contributes all of it's strength points to the army's total, the second strongest half, the third strongest a quarter etc. Hit points are pooled, and if the army is broken up each unit receives the number of hit points the army had divided by the number of units in the army. The strength of the army is calculated for each combat, to take into account different situations (eg an archer and an axeman defending a hill city, or in the open)

The army carries a supply of food, and each unit consumes an amount of food per turn, which can be replenished by pillaging a farm or pasture, spending a turn on a tile or by a supply unit

The amount of food consumed by each unit may increase with the size of the army if required for balancing purposes. This would represent sickness, wastage and corruption.

The amount of food gain from waiting on a tile would be equal to what it would produce for a city working the tile. The amount consumed per turn and the amounts gained from pillaging and from supply units would be determined by playtesting. Running out of food would result in combat penalties and hitpoint loss, mild at first but becoming severe.

The supply unit would be consumed in resupplying the army. They would be captureable, making attacking supply lines both powerful and profitable.

Supply units would disappear after a certain number of turns to represent food perishing and to restrict hording of these units. The time taken for the food to perish would increase with tech, allowing units to operate further from home (as is historically accurate).

Incidentally, army supply units would provide a way of transporting food between cities.

Units defending on a single tile act as an army

This is quite intuitive I think, once we start including armies.

Units in cities consume food from the city's granary

Once we have soldiers eating food, I think this is intuitive too. It also means the defender doesn't get too big an advantage.

Implications

Armies would be very powerful, even overpowered if not for the difficulty of keeping them in the field. Protecting supply lines would be vital, as un unsupplied army would be a dead army. Players would have to deal with similar problems as RL generals - defeating garrisons near the line of advance, keeping the soldiers fed. Defenders would have new tactics at their disposal - Scorched earth, counter attacks to interupt supply lines, placing fortresses at strategic points which couldn't be ignored by attackers...

Although armies would be powerful, to get the best out of them, many smaller armies would be required. A single army of 30 units might be surrounded, but 6 armies of 5 units each would not. They could also pillage 6 farms in one turn, and so survive longer without supply.

Pausing to heal would be a luxury only afforded to well supplied armies or armies small enough to live off the land. Long wars would become more costly and therefore wars would be short and sharp, and rarely a fight to the death. With the size of militaries limited by food, prosecuting one war for too long would leave you vulnerable to your other neighbours.

With the increased cost and difficulty of war, peaceful strategies would also come to the fore - having a smaller army would allow more food for specialists or mine workers, helping space or culture victories.

Finally, with the addition of two relatively simple concepts, the complexity of Civ is much increased and IMO improved. Several issues are delt with and gameplay moves more towards RL reality.
 
I agree with the general idea of supply as a limitation of stacks. But I don't like the idea of armies. They seem to add importance to stacks by designating them as a special type of thing. And having a different type of combat for them would seem to confuse and completely render obsolete the current system of combat, which works quite well for diminishing the importance of war in the game, through its simplicity.
 
This solution seems overly complex to me, and this whole area of debate really feels like reinventing a perfectly serviceable wheel; every unit costing it's home city food and/or shileds is a tried and tested mechanism that works.
 
I agree with the general idea of supply as a limitation of stacks. But I don't like the idea of armies. They seem to add importance to stacks by designating them as a special type of thing.

It's partly to allow for the supply mechanic, and partly to encourage alternative methods of dealing with them, using the supply mechanic to the defender's advantage. While there is an advantage to having a big army (as in RL) there is also the drawback that it is vulnerable to loss of supply.

And having a different type of combat for them would seem to confuse and completely render obsolete the current system of combat, which works quite well for diminishing the importance of war in the game, through its simplicity.

I don't suggest a different type of combat at all - simply an encouragement for players to use different tactics.

This solution seems overly complex to me, and this whole area of debate really feels like reinventing a perfectly serviceable wheel; every unit costing it's home city food and/or shileds is a tried and tested mechanism that works.

Yes but it doesn't solve the stack problem and it doesn't stop the armies wandering aimlessly around forever problem. Reducing combat between stacks down to a single combat doesn't seem such a bad thing to me, especially as they would be organically limited in size
 
I don't suggest a different type of combat at all - simply an encouragement for players to use different tactics.

Tactics are not what Civ is about, though. There shouldn't be a range of tactics to choose from, but a range of strategies. This is partially what I was meaning when I said that armies would add importance to stacks, by designating them differently.
 
Tactics are not what Civ is about

But, isn't what you are complaining about when you talk about the prevalence of stacks? A lack of tactic?

Like "you just build bunch of units and send them to the front, this is not nearly as strategic/tactical as a Civ game should be".
 
But, isn't what you are complaining about when you talk about the prevalence of stacks? A lack of tactic?

Like "you just build bunch of units and send them to the front, this is not nearly as strategic/tactical as a Civ game should be".

I wouldn't say that the power of stacks is a tactic, so much as an exploit. The very fact that they are overpowered can be used as a tactic, so it would be nice if this was diminished. To a degree, yes, limiting stacks and breaking them up into smaller components is just replacing one tactic with another, but I would think that that's on a whole different level to instituting a new combat entity, that being an army.
 
I wouldn't say that the power of stacks is a tactic

Sure. That's what I pointed out.

so much as an exploit.

The one does not prevent the second.

The very fact that they are overpowered can be used as a tactic, so it would be nice if this was diminished. To a degree, yes, limiting stacks and breaking them up into smaller components is just replacing one tactic with another, but I would think that that's on a whole different level to instituting a new combat entity, that being an army.

But imagine a game without SODs, would it be less tactical? I don't think so, it would be skirmishes between units, with a great importance on position, fortifyings, etc...

Army would make the battles automatic. All the units in the army would act in the same time, against all the other units of the other army, in the same time. It would disminish tactical involvement, other than the choice of the units in the armies.
 
Yes, it would invariably be implicitly tactical, but not explicitly. If you have armies, your handing tactics to the player on a silver platter, as opposed to tactics being the product of something else. Still, it's tactics, but I don't think tactics are as bad when they are the product of game mechanisms, rather than a game mechanism in themselves. If you get what I mean...
 
Tactics are not what Civ is about, though. There shouldn't be a range of tactics to choose from, but a range of strategies. This is partially what I was meaning when I said that armies would add importance to stacks, by designating them differently.

Should I have used the word "strategies"? It does better describe what I mean, I guess :dunno:
 
Should I have used the word "strategies"? It does better describe what I mean, I guess :dunno:

Well, yes it is a far better word to have associated with an idea for Civ (seeing as Civ is a strategy game, but not a tactical one), but I would think that your idea is tactical. Strategy would refer to the more overarching direction of gameplay that a player decides upon, whilst tactics refer to the minutiae manipulated in order to obtain a batter result. Now, the focus of the game is on the overarching direction of gameplay, and not the manipulation of minutiae in order to exploit game mechanics to gain better results. Tactics do have some limited place in the game, but as a general rule, tactics in the game are not a good idea, due to their limitation of strategic skill, and annoyance to those that actually want to play a strategic game.

Your idea of armies best fits into the tactics category, given that it involves the organisation of a small number of units. And furthermore, as explained above, they would be explicit tactics, rather than implicit, which really, IMO, is not good for an idea.
 
Well, yes it is a far better word to have associated with an idea for Civ (seeing as Civ is a strategy game, but not a tactical one), but I would think that your idea is tactical. Strategy would refer to the more overarching direction of gameplay that a player decides upon, whilst tactics refer to the minutiae manipulated in order to obtain a batter result. Now, the focus of the game is on the overarching direction of gameplay, and not the manipulation of minutiae in order to exploit game mechanics to gain better results. Tactics do have some limited place in the game, but as a general rule, tactics in the game are not a good idea, due to their limitation of strategic skill, and annoyance to those that actually want to play a strategic game.

Your idea of armies best fits into the tactics category, given that it involves the organisation of a small number of units. And furthermore, as explained above, they would be explicit tactics, rather than implicit, which really, IMO, is not good for an idea.
So in your ideal civ game you'd hit an "invade" button next to an opponent and the war would be instantaniously decided, depending on preparations made by you and your opponent? That's the only way I can think of to completely do away with "tactics" as you define them.
 
Yes, it would invariably be implicitly tactical, but not explicitly. If you have armies, your handing tactics to the player on a silver platter, as opposed to tactics being the product of something else. Still, it's tactics, but I don't think tactics are as bad when they are the product of game mechanisms, rather than a game mechanism in themselves. If you get what I mean...

No, I don't get what you mean... ;)
 
So in your ideal civ game you'd hit an "invade" button next to an opponent and the war would be instantaniously decided, depending on preparations made by you and your opponent? That's the only way I can think of to completely do away with "tactics" as you define them.

As I underlined it, it would be a way to delete tactics from wars, with armies.

But it would not be as much different from Civ4, when you can stack-attack. It would be a stack-attack but managed differently, with for example having horses in one army and none in the other being determinant (flank attack).
 
As I underlined it, it would be a way to delete tactics from wars, with armies.

But it would not be as much different from Civ4, when you can stack-attack. It would be a stack-attack but managed differently, with for example having horses in one army and none in the other being determinant (flank attack).

Yeah, imo the SOD is historically accurate - armies were usually gathered together rather than spread out - but is unwieldy from the gameplay perspective. Having one battle between two stacks per turn seems much easier. The trick is to make the creation and use of armies balances and intuative. Not sure exactly how that should be approached (although I offer a suggestion in the OP), but I do feel that if armies are to be introduced that supply of those armies ought to be introduced also, in whatever guise.
 
So in your ideal civ game you'd hit an "invade" button next to an opponent and the war would be instantaniously decided, depending on preparations made by you and your opponent? That's the only way I can think of to completely do away with "tactics" as you define them.

Well, no. That's why I said that there is room for some degree of tactics in the game. But making the game tactics heavy is not good. Also, an invasion involves strategy beyond the build up and initial moves? What cities will you go for? Which units will you leave to defend? That is strategic, not tactical. Tactical would be whether or not you should cover the left flank of an opponent in an adjacent tile as you defend, whether or not you should target a specific building within a city as a military objective, or, in this case, whether or not you should group some units as an 'army', with the benefits and penalties that involves. Tactics are much more micro, whereas Civ is about the Macro. Not the minutiae of the invasion, but the general shape of the invasion, and its general progression.

No, I don't get what you mean... ;)

Well, there are some tactics in the game that are products of game mechanics. Such as attacking from across a river or not. That is a tactical consideration that is a product of the role of rivers within the game. These are much more acceptable tactics in the game than 'explicit' tactics, i.e. those tactics that in the game independent of other factors, such as the army idea, which is solely its own tactical game mechanism.
 
Well, no. That's why I said that there is room for some degree of tactics in the game. But making the game tactics heavy is not good. Also, an invasion involves strategy beyond the build up and initial moves? What cities will you go for? Which units will you leave to defend? That is strategic, not tactical. Tactical would be whether or not you should cover the left flank of an opponent in an adjacent tile as you defend, whether or not you should target a specific building within a city as a military objective, or, in this case, whether or not you should group some units as an 'army', with the benefits and penalties that involves. Tactics are much more micro, whereas Civ is about the Macro. Not the minutiae of the invasion, but the general shape of the invasion, and its general progression.

So... having to plan for the supply of your army is strategy, but planning to disrupt that supply is tactics? I see.... :crazyeye:

Well, there are some tactics in the game that are products of game mechanics. Such as attacking from across a river or not. That is a tactical consideration that is a product of the role of rivers within the game. These are much more acceptable tactics in the game than 'explicit' tactics, i.e. those tactics that in the game independent of other factors, such as the army idea, which is solely its own tactical game mechanism.

Or is it? I'd argue that using a river as a defensive frontier would be an excellent strategy. Indeed, a strategy used countless time throughout history. Perhaps tactics (as you see them) and strategy differ in the eye of the beholder?
 
Well, there are some tactics in the game that are products of game mechanics. Such as attacking from across a river or not. That is a tactical consideration that is a product of the role of rivers within the game. These are much more acceptable tactics in the game than 'explicit' tactics, i.e. those tactics that in the game independent of other factors, such as the army idea, which is solely its own tactical game mechanism.

I still have some difficulty to see what you mean... armies as I see them wouldn't be tactical, because the battles would happen alone. There would be stacks, the difference with Civ4 being that the battles between two stacks would be managed differently. For example, it would not be anymore one attacker vs the best defender against it, it would be all the attackers versus all the defenders. I have difficulty to see what involves the player in a tactical way here, beside the choice of his troops in the stack, an dthe purpose of the stack. (does it haev to field battle, or reach a city?)

It would be a much different way to manage stacks, but i fail to see what's not Civ in it.
 
Yeah, imo the SOD is historically accurate - armies were usually gathered together rather than spread out - but is unwieldy from the gameplay perspective. Having one battle between two stacks per turn seems much easier. The trick is to make the creation and use of armies balances and intuative. Not sure exactly how that should be approached (although I offer a suggestion in the OP), but I do feel that if armies are to be introduced that supply of those armies ought to be introduced also, in whatever guise.

It would still be one fight between two stacks. The only difference between this and Civ4 would be how units would fight themselves. As i said above, it would not be anymore one attacker vs the best defender, but all units vs all units in one move.

As to supplies, seems a good idea, but I didn't see yet a good suggestion of implementation.
 
So... having to plan for the supply of your army is strategy, but planning to disrupt that supply is tactics? I see.... :crazyeye:

I don't see where you got supply into this. It is strategy to plan that you will move your units to Tile X via Route Y. To simply do that. Plan the route of your invasion. It is tactics to alter the minutiae along the way of that route, thereby effecting outcomes that would not otherwise be effected.

Or is it? I'd argue that using a river as a defensive frontier would be an excellent strategy. Indeed, a strategy used countless time throughout history. Perhaps tactics (as you see them) and strategy differ in the eye of the beholder?

I'd still say that is tactics, given that the strategy involved would be having a defensive frontier, rather than using a particular tile and game mechanic as that frontier that is strategically decided upon.

I still have some difficulty to see what you mean... armies as I see them wouldn't be tactical, because the battles would happen alone. There would be stacks, the difference with Civ4 being that the battles between two stacks would be managed differently. For example, it would not be anymore one attacker vs the best defender against it, it would be all the attackers versus all the defenders. I have difficulty to see what involves the player in a tactical way here, beside the choice of his troops in the stack, an dthe purpose of the stack. (does it haev to field battle, or reach a city?)

It would be a much different way to manage stacks, but i fail to see what's not Civ in it.

It would be tactical because you could decide for one particular battle to group your units as an army of not, depending on your situation.
 
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