Sea tiles should be bigger than land tiles

Gangor · Dec 31, 2009

I know I'm not the only one who thinks moving ships around the (largely vacant) ocean is a drag, so I offer this suggestion:

Make ocean tiles bigger than land tiles. That is, 1 sea tile = 4 land tiles. This would massively reduce the tedium, and also represent the speed of sea travel better.

Coastal sea tiles would end up being odd shapes, but I don't see that it matters much. That would just represent the difficulty of navigating around rugged coastlines.

Thoughts?

searcheagle · Jan 1, 2010

Your idea would lead to a confusing map. A better way to fix this issue is to increase the speed of naval units. Coastal travel should be slowed down due to rugged coastlines and shallow seas.

Lockesdonkey · Jan 2, 2010

searcheagle said:
Your idea would lead to a confusing map. A better way to fix this issue is to increase the speed of naval units. Coastal travel should be slowed down due to rugged coastlines and shallow seas.

In other words, perhaps double or triple the movement points of all vessels, then make Coast cost more MP (rather like Hills or Forest). It's actually a rather interesting and simple fix (it could be executed in a mod). I wonder why nobody's thought of it before.

Gangor · Jan 2, 2010

Lockesdonkey said:
In other words, perhaps double or triple the movement points of all vessels, then make Coast cost more MP (rather like Hills or Forest). It's actually a rather interesting and simple fix (it could be executed in a mod). I wonder why nobody's thought of it before.

The trouble I have with that is watching my ship moving 15 tiles in one turn.... BORING!

Camikaze · Jan 2, 2010

It would be a very confusing thing to implement. There are quite a few problems with it, or better solutions to the problems this idea tries to rectify.

Firstly, if you make sea tiles bigger, you'll have trouble with tesselation, with the joint between land and sea being necessarily less detailed, and more block like.

Secondly, this would create a problem with warfare. Massive tiles would greatly increase the necessity for naval warfare. You would have much more trouble avoiding it. This is unrealistic when you consider the size of tiles. Two ships can realistically avoid combat on a tile that is about 120 x 120 km. This system would not allow for that.

Thirdly, you would have reduced manoeuvrability of your ships. This is not a good thing.

Fourthly, your problem of ships taking a longer time to move could be much more easily solved by simply upping the movement range of each sea unit, as Lockesdonkey suggests. I don't see why moving your ship 15 tiles in one turn is boring, or at least any more boring that what would be the case if this idea took effect.

Gangor · Jan 2, 2010

Camikaze said:
Firstly, if you make sea tiles bigger, you'll have trouble with tesselation, with the joint between land and sea being necessarily less detailed, and more block like.

No, the coastal tiles would be odd shapes rather than land tiles being affected.

Secondly, this would create a problem with warfare. Massive tiles would greatly increase the necessity for naval warfare. You would have much more trouble avoiding it. This is unrealistic when you consider the size of tiles. Two ships can realistically avoid combat on a tile that is about 120 x 120 km. This system would not allow for that.

Well, it would stop people complaining that navies are useless!

Thirdly, you would have reduced manoeuvrability of your ships. This is not a good thing.

Why not?

Fourthly, your problem of ships taking a longer time to move could be much more easily solved by simply upping the movement range of each sea unit, as Lockesdonkey suggests. I don't see why moving your ship 15 tiles in one turn is boring, or at least any more boring that what would be the case if this idea took effect.

Well yes, but as I said before it's tedious. Not an elegant sollution.

Camikaze · Jan 2, 2010

Gangor said:
No, the coastal tiles would be odd shapes rather than land tiles being affected.

So there would be sea tiles of varying sizes? That's hardly at all realistic.

Well, it would stop people complaining that navies are useless!

Giving them reduced options in their movements is hardly making them more useful.

Why not?

It reduces the usefulness of ships, unrealistically so. Why shouldn't you be able to manoeuvre your ships less than you can manoeuvre your land units?

Well yes, but as I said before it's tedious. Not an elegant sollution.

In what way is it tedious or not an elegant solution? Surely squashing a bunch of tiles together isn't an elegant solution...

Gangor · Jan 2, 2010

Camikaze said:
So there would be sea tiles of varying sizes? That's hardly at all realistic.

So? This a game, not RL.

Giving them reduced options in their movements is hardly making them more useful.

But it means you don't have to make a massive navy for it to be effective at defending your coastline. Besides, ship tactics shouldn't really be part of the scope of Civ - this gives a higher strategic view to naval combat.

It reduces the usefulness of ships, unrealistically so. Why shouldn't you be able to manoeuvre your ships less than you can manoeuvre your land units?

Manoeuvring? Next you'll be wanting enhanced naval tactics! :mischief:

In what way is it tedious or not an elegant solution? Surely squashing a bunch of tiles together isn't an elegant solution...

The TW series has bigger sea tiles than land tiles, so why not Civ?

Camikaze · Jan 2, 2010

Gangor said:
So? This a game, not RL.

The game needs a semblance of realism. And it would also not be realistic within the game to have different sized sea tiles, given that the game works on a system of equally sized tiles.

But it means you don't have to make a massive navy for it to be effective at defending your coastline. Besides, ship tactics shouldn't really be part of the scope of Civ - this gives a higher strategic view to naval combat.

In which case navies would be made rather useless. If you only need a small navy, then people will only have small navies. So they will lose importance.

And it isn't changing anything with tactics or strategies. It is just effectively making the ocean smaller.

Manoeuvring? Next you'll be wanting enhanced naval tactics!

Heh. No. Manoeuvrability and tactics are two different things in this case (with manoeuvrability simply referring to having more precise options of where to move your ships).

The TW series has bigger sea tiles than land tiles, so why not Civ?

Because it is clearly not the best option, when all you need to do is simply increase the movement of ships.

ShunNakamura · Jan 2, 2010

Rather than significantly bumping up movement points. Why not make movement costs at sea and in the ocean cheaper? Also increase line of sight over open seas(if possible). Boats may not be able to see super far inland, but they would probably sea farther around them at sea than an average warrior would on land.

Gangor · Jan 5, 2010

Camikaze said:
It is just effectively making the ocean smaller.

Yes it is. So if you're playing an Earth map, instead of having twice as many sea tiles as land tiles you have half as many. Since I hardly ever build a tenth of the number of naval units as land units this makes perfect sense to me.

Lockesdonkey · Jan 6, 2010

At the end of the day, the main difference between making sea tiles bigger and giving ships greater movement across open ocean is that the former solution is ungainly and the latter isn't. I think that the case for the latter ought to be obvious.

Camikaze · Jan 6, 2010

ShunNakamura said:
Rather than significantly bumping up movement points. Why not make movement costs at sea and in the ocean cheaper? Also increase line of sight over open seas(if possible). Boats may not be able to see super far inland, but they would probably sea farther around them at sea than an average warrior would on land.

So you mean something like reducing movements costs in sea tiles with specific technologies? That does make sense to a certain extent, but that allows galleys to utilise the same technology as battleships to double their movement, which isn't particularly realistic. Having an incrementally increasing movement range, like currently, is a much better way of doing things.

Lockesdonkey · Jan 6, 2010

Presumably, Galleys (and Triremes) would not be permitted to enter open ocean.

CheeseWalrus · Jan 6, 2010

You could do it like in rfc, where ships have double movement on ocean tiles, and i think more movement points in general.

ShunNakamura · Jan 6, 2010

Camikaze said:
So you mean something like reducing movements costs in sea tiles with specific technologies? That does make sense to a certain extent, but that allows galleys to utilise the same technology as battleships to double their movement, which isn't particularly realistic. Having an incrementally increasing movement range, like currently, is a much better way of doing things.

Yeah, that kinda came to me a while after posting. Not to mention it could prove rather unintuitive for new players. Definitely easier all around just to have higher movement points.

Silurian · Jan 8, 2010

If sea tiles were bigger than land how would this effect air units

As Lockesdonkey said above coast should cost more movement points with some increase in the total movement points allowed
Perhaps there should be increased movement cost when exploring also

Visabilty on ships is limited by the curvature of the earth so should not be incresed

deanej · Jan 8, 2010

But if it isn't increased it could be gamebreaking. It's already impossible to see enemy naval units as they're coming, given the large amount of movement for modern ships.

Silurian · Jan 9, 2010

Why is not increasing the visibilty of ships game breaking
Its real look at old naval war films
Until the event of aircraft the only way you could find where the enemy was by sending out a patrol vessel to look for them - hence fast but lightly armed ships - modeled by increased visibility and movement. Or post vessels as a screen.

In the late game I think you shold get rid of the stealth destroyer and replace it with a ship bourne helicopter that could carry out ASW, anti shipping and patrol and one could be based on any naval unit including transport ( 3 on carrier)

All tiles should be the same size!

Eklabiaan · Jan 11, 2010

Gangor said:
I know I'm not the only one who thinks moving ships around the (largely vacant) ocean is a drag, so I offer this suggestion:

Yes it can be long drag to find another coast. But Columbus did not find the new continent in a week either. So it it an aspect of realism in the game. And in our fast paced time it cannot hurt to experience some waiting, it is a fact of life. (yeah, yeah, I am no :old:

).
For me the reason to increase ship movement is the mismatch between sea and land unit speed. In the early game the need for transport by Galley is almost nill. Running is faster. Map type dependent of course.
So I side with the movement points/cost camp.

Sea tiles should be bigger than land tiles

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