Negative Traits?

Purely theoretical concept, since I've got the modding chops of a stoned baboon.

What do people think of the idea of negative traits? Perhaps one per leader? I know that the way each faction had its pros and cons was one of my favourite aspects of SMAC, but would this transfer well into Civ 4?

So, for example: Someone like Stalin or GK might get the "Oppressive" trait, where they would receive a penalty to GPP. On the other hand, Gandhi might get the "Pacifist" trait, where his units gain experience 50% slower. There might also be a trait called something like "Emancipator" (or something, I don't know), which would go to people like Washington or Elizabeth, which would increase the from whipping and WW.

Anyway, the specific traits themselves aren't important. The question is: Would you like to see this in a Civ game, as a way to diversify the leaders further? Or does it seem like more of a pain than anything else?

*clicks the "Like" button*

I think it'd add more flavour. Nice idea!

i don't think it's a good idea from a design perspective: you're making players choose between two things that will hinder them. in general, players should choose between positives, not decide which negative will hurt them the least.

now its fine to give some things disadvantages, this is how you can balance the game. but when every leader has a noticeable negative trait, it leads to the games being unfun.

a game should have two choices:

-Sword: You gain extra damage
-Shield: You gain extra health

or

-Sword: You gain a lot of extra damage, but your attack speed is a little lower
-Shield: You gain extra health.

not

-Sword: You are more encumbered
-Shield: You are unable to use anything in the off-hand

some traits can have disadvantages, but blanketing every choice with some drawback is not, in my opinion, good design.

Realism Invictus - a large and popular modpack - contains negative leader traits for each leader, some of which are similar to what you describe. You might want to check it out. While they do add an interesting touch, I don't care for them much myself, especially traits that slow production of workers or the economy.

There are several mods with negative traits, vice and virtue is one I was looking at ages ago.

Of course you can roleplay with your own restrictions that can have similar effects.

It would be kind of hard to role-play most of those kind of mechanics. You can't roleplay people to be unhappy longer after a while, nor can you roleplay increased food consumption or slightly weaker units when attacking out of your territory or things like that.

You can kind of roleplay slower workers or slower XP gain (don't promote until you hit the higher threshold) but even that wouldn't really be the same as having the game restrict you.

It sounds interesting. Count me in the "For it" catagory.

If done, a check box to indicate if they will be added to the next game should be included. That way they could be part of the game and used by any mod that chose to include them.
Otherwise, we are back to "It only works, if I load this one mod" thing.
For example, the PIG mod grants +1xp for melee units after their colusseum is built. Novel thought huh? Gladiators fighting might prepare someone better for battle in the field.
Anyway, we only get that option, if we load that one mod.

plasmacannon said:

For example, the PIG mod grants +1xp for melee units after their colusseum is built. Novel thought huh? Gladiators fighting might prepare someone better for battle in the field.
Anyway, we only get that option, if we load that one mod.

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Interesting thought, though I've always felt that the intended purpose of the colosseum was more to represent a variety of different entertainment venues, rather than the specific colosseums of Rome. In other words, gladiator bouts would help train swordsmen, but would Superbowl Sunday help train Navy SEALs? Lol

MilesBeyond said:

Interesting thought, though I've always felt that the intended purpose of the colosseum was more to represent a variety of different entertainment venues, rather than the specific colosseums of Rome. In other words, gladiator bouts would help train swordsmen, but would Superbowl Sunday help train Navy SEALs? Lol

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Actually, in that mod, it only effects melee units, so new gunpowder units wouldn't get it. It would have to be a unit that survived from the Medieval period to still have it as a SEAL. It's only one point, but focused in an area that made sense to me and effectively expires, so it isn't overpowering.

I did run across another mod yesterday that created a -10% Unorganized trait and gave it to Barb Galleys. I forget the name.
I guess, the premise is that these solo raiders can't be as powerful as an organized navy from an empire.
It does give us slightly better odds too, instead of the 50-50 chance we have now in the game.
I know I've lost 3 galleys trying to take out 1 barb galley before.
I've gone 100+ turns without seafood resourses, because I was fighting on land, which was more important.

I don't mind so long as the game is balanced. If there are negative traits the leaders getting them must also have a better-than-normal trait to balance it, otherwise they are just a crap leader.

Currently all the traits are sort of equal (though we all know some are more equal than others) so any 2 are playable. To throw different-powered traits into the mix would require rethinking that system because only good+bad pairs would be balanced. Good+good or bad+bad would make for 3 tiers of leader quality. Bad+bad would also be no fun to play!

on actually CODING THAT IN: Sorry about the 'stoned baboon' part of modding...to be honest, I think most of us who mod "by zen" have those moments when we get massive cascading errors loading XML files when we hit "start" after thinking we MUST have got everything fixed.

So, if you do attempt any madness at this...SAVE ANY ORIGINAL FILES IN A SAFE FOLDER FOR RETURN before you hack anything....but saying that....

I've never tried this, but I THINK what you would do is go find the XML file with "trait" definitions in it....just go to the XML assets folders, and flip through them (it isn't in leaderheadinfos), do a search in text file format for "trait" until you find them defined.
Study them.....once you see which traits you want to modify, copy them (entirely), paste them as a separate paragraph. for example, to make the "oppresive" trait...find the deifinition for PHILOSOPHICAL....copy that paragraph, paste it, change PHILOSOPHICAL to OPRESSIVE, and change whatever obvious variables would be required to emulate.

Then go to leaderheadinfos, change say, one of stalin's traits from AGRESSIVE to OPRESSIVE (debates on how this nerfs or breaks the game I leave to others) , OR just copy one of his "traits" lines, and hack in the OPRESSIVE as a third trait (would this cause stalin to NEVER try to build great people points? probably not, more stuff in the code would need to be examined to determine what causes Stalin to elect to build GP at all).

A couple of worries that are way beyond even this ramble: I would avoid doing anything that might either:
1) cause the mathematics to not be done by integers. Say, making an OPRESSIVE trait where GP points are at 50% of NORMAL (1.5 GP points per specialist)....would it cause a crash or a bug? I don't know....but hopefully one could just restore all your SAVED files.
2) cause the mathematics to be negative numbers. If you do code in say, OPPRESSIVE trait to say, do negative ONE GP point (so 2 GP points per specialist) I worry you might cause the AI to start generating NEGATIVE points BEFORE they can elect specialists.....I worry when one attempts to divide by zero or work in negative numbers.....)

(poster takes no responsibility if he causes bugs such that even the restoration of original files does not seem to restore the game and complete re-installation becomes the order of the day)

I am coming close with toying of building some of these traits....one of my favorites was going to be DOUBLE AGRESSIVE (only trait for a leader, regular agressive, but combat II also gained by units who gain combat 1 and combat 1 given to ALL-OTHER-MILITARY-UNITS)....for....Charlie Sheen.....winning?)

MilesBeyond said:

Interesting thought, though I've always felt that the intended purpose of the colosseum was more to represent a variety of different entertainment venues, rather than the specific colosseums of Rome. In other words, gladiator bouts would help train swordsmen, but would Superbowl Sunday help train Navy SEALs? Lol

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Gladiator bouts killed slaves, that's all, gladiators weren't soldiers they were slaves killed for the amusement of the masses, so almost all of them died within a few bouts.

GA econ FTW said:

A couple of worries that are way beyond even this ramble: I would avoid doing anything that might either:
1) cause the mathematics to not be done by integers. Say, making an OPRESSIVE trait where GP points are at 50% of NORMAL (1.5 GP points per specialist)....would it cause a crash or a bug? I don't know....but hopefully one could just restore all your SAVED files.
2) cause the mathematics to be negative numbers. If you do code in say, OPPRESSIVE trait to say, do negative ONE GP point (so 2 GP points per specialist) I worry you might cause the AI to start generating NEGATIVE points BEFORE they can elect specialists.....I worry when one attempts to divide by zero or work in negative numbers.....)

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1. If you're working with the python you have to round most things (lots of ways to do this with the code) If you're working with XML you don't have to worry about it. You're working with XML, so, no problem. The game will round for you in any important case.

Note that actual in game bonuses do this all the time. Forum gives a 25% boost to GPP, making each specialist worth 3.75 GPP, it doesn't cause any problem.

2. If you make it give -1GPP per city flat out then you will have negatives from turn one. It doesn't break anything, but your first great person in your capital will be very slow. If you make it -1GPP per specialist then it won't do anything until you have a specialist. I'm assuming the latter it what you worry about?

Negative numbers are normally no problem. Dividing can be a problem, but there really is no reason to ever divide when programming. Just multiply by the desired decimal eqivalant (.25 for /4 ect, its easy to figure out).



I should mention that you don't need to replace any traits, you can add as many as you like to any given leader.

It's been a while since I did AI digging, but IIRC the AI doesn't 'build GPP', it builds wonders and specialists and gets a happy surprise when a GP pops. At best civics like pacifism increase the AI weight to running specialists, but there is no coding that equates to a 'build GPP' thought process. (There are 'build wonders' 'build military' and 'build science' thought processes and like, but no 'build GPP' that I'm aware of)

lymond said:

Realism Invictus - a large and popular modpack - contains negative leader traits for each leader, some of which are similar to what you describe. You might want to check it out. While they do add an interesting touch, I don't care for them much myself, especially traits that slow production of workers or the economy.

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Indeed, it adds a pleasant flavor.

Concerning Tlalynet and happyturtle comments: this kind of mod is, imho, well suited for role-play as it provides the game mechanics.

I would like if some Civs had disadvantages, but bigger advantages as a result, kind of like some RPGs where you can pick negative traits for your characters which reduce their XP required to level, thus enabling you to pick more positive traits.

bhavv said:

I would like if some Civs had disadvantages, but bigger advantages as a result, kind of like some RPGs where you can pick negative traits for your characters which reduce their XP required to level, thus enabling you to pick more positive traits.

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Yes. Master of Orion 2 did this too.
That would be interesting.

A Peaceful Trait (opposite of Aggressive) -10 Combat, Barracks & Drydock built 50% slower.

Repulsive Trait (opposite of Charismatic) +25% xp for promotions, -1 Happiness in all cities.

Uncreative (opposite of Creative) -2 culture/city (0 minimum) Library, Colosseum & Theatre built 50% slower.

Relaxed (opposite of Expansive) workers build 25% slower, Granaries & Harbors built 50% slower.

Theivery (opposite of Financial) -1 gold per plot (min 0).

Content (opposite of Imperialistic) settlers built 50% slower. GGs need 50% more xp to emerge

Lazy (opposite of Industrious) +50% wonder prod. Forges built 50% slower.

Disorganized (opposite of Organized) Civic cost increased +25%, Lighthouse, Courthouse & Factory built 50% slower.

Unenlightened (opposite of Philosophical) -50% Great Person Rate.

Defenseless (opposite of Protective) Walls & Castles built 50% slower.

Unholy (opposite of Spiritual) Temples build 50% slower.

I suppose we could create new ones not based on the game's traits too.

plasmacannon said:

Yes. Master of Orion 2 did this too.
That would be interesting.
A Peaceful Trait (opposite of Aggressive) -10 Combat, Barracks & Drydock build 50% slower.
and a few others.

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i think a better way to implement this would be to just add negatives to each trait.

like:

Aggressive: All buildings (except monument) produce -1 culture

Charismatic: +25% war weariness

Creative: forges give +1

Expansive: Civic maintenance increased

Financial: +10% city maintenance

Imperialistic: i got nothing, shouldn't be something that inhibits expansion though

Industrious: courthouses give +1

Organized: something that lowers culture output

Protective: protective needs all the help it can get

Philosophical: units need +1 exp for promotions

Spiritual: Observatories give -10%

but then you would be penalizing the base leaders.
True some are OP traits combos.
I have seen mods that reduce them, such as FIN only +1 gold on 3 gold tiles, instead of 2, but building markets and banks 25% faster.

Most add Jails to AGG and to Security Bureaus to PRO.
Some reduce ORG's civic cost advantage to only a -25% reduction.

Well I'm still currently trying to figure out how to add more leader heads and an extra custom Civ to my mod, and trait editing is still beyond what I currently know how to do, but I might look into doing this in the future, modding gives me a headache