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“Ambush” – New Idea for CIV 5

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by MosheLevi, Mar 5, 2009.

  1. MosheLevi

    MosheLevi Prince

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    Ambushing the enemy is not possible in CIV 4 and I believe that adding such capability can add new strategy and a lot of fun to CIV 5.

    Here is how it could work:

    “Ambush” will apply to both defense and attack.

    Players will have to choose between setting a defensive position (25% max defense bonus) or setting an “Ambush” (50% max defense bonus – 10% per turn).

    Ambushing will only be possible in Forests, Jungles, and Hills.
    Players cannot set an ambush if there is a Fort in that tile.

    Units will continue to enjoy the tile natural defensive bonus (on top of the ambush bonus).

    Units that are in max ambush position (50%) would not be seen by other units other than scouts and spies.
    Units that are in a partial ambush position (less than 50%) may or may not be seen by normal units (base on a formula).

    Spies and scouts will not always see units in ambush position.
    We will need a special formula to calculate that probability.
    It will be the hardest to detect one unit in ambush position.
    The more units in ambush position – the easier (more probable) it will be for the spies and scouts to detect them.

    Not all units can set an ambush position (e.g. tanks).


    If units that are in “Ambush” position are visible to the enemy then the “Ambush” defense bonus will be converted to the normal defense bonus (25% defense instead of 50%).

    We can then have special promotion related to ambushing.
    Spies and scouts can have “ambush unit detection” promotion to improve the chances for them to detect ambush units.
    Normal units can have “ambush strength” promotion as well as “counter ambush strength”.

    If the enemy moves an entire stack into a tile that is occupied by units in ambush position (when the ambushing units were not seen by the enemy) then the combat will involve all the units in the stack as well as all the units in the ambush tile.
    Players that were ambushed will be given a chance to retreat after 3 or 4 combat rounds and they will suffer additional damage if they choose to retreat.

    “Ambush” will apply also to units that attack.

    Units in ambush position can attack enemy units that are one tile away from them with up to 50% extra attack (for having the element of surprise).
    However, if they were seen by the enemy then the attacking units will not enjoy any “Ambush” bonus.
    The defending units will still enjoy their tile defensive bonus.

    The defending units will be selected randomly for ambush attacks (instead of the best counter unit).

    This means that attacking ambush units will have better chances to defeat the enemy.
    The same rule applies to ambush units in a defensive position – the ambushed unit will be selected randomly.

    When a unit gets ambushed then only one unit at a time will be revealed.
    For example, if the enemy moved 3 units to a tile that was ambushed by 5 units.
    His 3 units will die by 3 ambushing units (that will be revealed).
    However, the other 2 units that were also in ambush position will not be revealed.

    This is the general idea and I am sure it can be improved and get tweaked some more.

    This “Ambush” capability will allow defenders to set ambush position against attackers.

    Attackers can also surprise their enemies by setting ambush positions in enemy territory (in key defensive points) and then go on a massive attack or pillaging.
    The ambush units will then ambush reinforcements from other cities or units that try to intercept pillaging units.

    I believe that this setup will add plenty of strategy to the game that includes guerilla warfare.

    Here is an example for ambush tactics that can be used.
    A player can set an ambush longbow units in a tile and then place there knight unit (without setting it in ambush).
    The enemy sees only the knight and sends a pikemen to intercepts it.
    The pikemen is then ambushed by the longbow (for being the best counter unit) that defeats the pikemen.
    The enemy then sees its pikemen being defeated by the ambushing longbows.
    However, he doesn’t know if there are more ambush units in that tile.

    This will require players to calculate every step when they moving their army units around.

    It will be probably a good idea to add an option to disable “ambushing” if you think that complicates the game play too much.
    Players can then decide if they want to play with ambush units or not.

    Another option could be to disable “ambushing” only for the AI (allowing players to have all the fun ambushing the AI left and right).
     
  2. MosheLevi

    MosheLevi Prince

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    Added more detailes to original post...
     
  3. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    Good idea, but I think you may have overpowered it slightly. Also, I think that the element of randomness, deciding what units are attacked, messes with the battle mechanics too much, and overpowers the ambush even more.

    Question: If a city is on a hill, can you set an ambush in that city?
     
  4. MosheLevi

    MosheLevi Prince

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    you might be right about the "Ambush" being OP the way I described it.
    However, that can easily be adjusted when doing balance testing.
    For example, the maximum ambush bonus can be set at 30% instead of 50%.

    For your question - ambush cannot be set in a city or a fort because it is expected to have enemy forces in such locations.

    Ambush can only work in Forests, Jungles, and Hills.
    it will also take 5 turns to achieve maximum ambush bonus assuming the enemy doesn't see the ambush with its spys or scouts.

    In other words ambush may not always work since it requires careful planning and execution.
     
  5. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    But the enemy may not be aware of how many units a city has, just like placing an ambush behind what appears to be an innocent one unit walkover. Just when you think you've cleaned up the defenders, BAM- another wave of them. That could be a very decisive tool. Whether this is good or not would remain to be seen.
     
  6. MosheLevi

    MosheLevi Prince

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    I don’t think ambush in a city is practical because players will always send spies to enemy cities and spies will reveal ambush units after couple of turns.

    Normally ambush is being set out in the field so it would make sense to restrict it to Forests, Jungles, and Hills.
     
  7. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    Well, this would just make it less useful, not impractical. And it could be another disadvantage of not having a good spy system.
     
  8. MosheLevi

    MosheLevi Prince

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    I am currently playing a game where I am facing an AI opponent who is a little weaker than me.
    However, in this point there is no use going on a full scale attack because defenders have the advantage (better movement and the choice of selecting the best unit to defend with).

    So right now I am in a stalemate with that AI player and I cannot do anything until I have a much bigger force (which may take a while).

    So now I am even more convinced that we need guerrilla warfare for situations like that.
    Players should be able to set ambush positions in their territory as well as enemy territory.

    Now I think that it would work best if an ambush unit attacks the unit it counters best (instead of random selection).
    After all, units in ambush position can pretty much choose who to attack first.

    In order to allow units to be unseen in enemy territory we will need special commando units.
    These special commando (guerilla) units will also have different promotions available to counter different type of units such as armor, gunships, and infantry.
    This way we can sneak units into enemy territory and set there ambush positions when we want to slow down an enemy counter attack.

    The advantage with setting units in ambush positions is to inflict heavy casualties on the enemy with a small number of units and to sabotage their invasion plans.
    Each ambush unit should be able to kill 3 or 4 equivalent units before it is killed (when it sets a successful ambush position).

    I think that a feature like that can give us some extra excitement for stalemate situations allowing us to achieve the upper hand.
     
  9. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    I think that, although it would be a good idea to be able to set ambushes in enemy territory, it should only be able to be done under either of the following two sets of conditions, to stop it from becoming ridiculously overpowered:
    1. You have an open borders agreement with the civ you are setting the ambush in.
    2. No rival units enter the tile you are setting the ambush on whilst the ambush is being set (5 turns to set ambush?)
    OR
    1. You don't have an open borders agreement with the civ you are setting the ambush in.
    2. Each unit in the ambush party must have an accompanying spy unit to enter enemy territory, and whilst the ambush is being set. So, a maximum of four units for every five turns (unless in BtS, which I don't have, you can have more than four spies at a time). Or, one great spy for every four units being set as an ambush.
    3. Slight chance of discovery by rival spies, which would incur a diplomatic penalty, possibly cause war, and remove your units from enemy territory.
     
  10. MosheLevi

    MosheLevi Prince

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    Sure, you have to have open border agreement with the civ you are setting the ambush in.
    After all, you can not go into their territory without declaring a war first.

    Yes, units have to have a vacant tile in order to set an ambush.
    It will take 5 turns to set the best ambush position (50% bonus, 10% bonus per turn).

    Enemy spies will see the ambush if they go into that tile, but the spy will die when that happens.
    The same is true for enemy scout.
    Spies will also have a chance to see ambush positions while standing a tile away from the ambush.
    That can depend on many variables, such as spy promotions (yes, we should have spy promotions too including seeing ambush positions 2 tiles away), the current ambush bonus (depending on the number of turns the ambush was set), the number of turns the spy stands next to the ambush, and the ambush units promotions.

    So there are ways to uncover ambush positions with spies, scouts, and careful unit movement.
     
  11. Xellos-_^

    Xellos-_^ Prince

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    i like the ambush idea however should be limit

    - only non-mechanize units and non-mounted units can ambush (no tanks, Mechinf, Artillary, etc)
    - If the ambush is set in enemy terrority there is a 50% chance of being discover
    - there is a limit to the number of units in each ambush. no 100unit infantry in ambush. Maybe 4-5 units?
    - Forrest and jungle only unless it is a marine then it can hide in a river tile.
    - 3 to 4 space apart between each ambush.
    - spies can reveal ambush but only by standing on the ambush tile and used the "reveal ambush ability" but it would use up the spy unit whether there is a ambush or not.
     
  12. MosheLevi

    MosheLevi Prince

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    Thank you, and yes it should be limited just like a real guerilla war is.
    The details can be tweaked in many ways and that should be determined during testing (if FA ever goes for that).

    Yes definitely, only infantry commando style units can set an ambush starting from archers, infantry, marines and so on.
    However, I think it should be allowed to combine ambush position (concealed units) with other mechanize/mounted units in the same tile.
    The enemy will then see only the mechanized/mounted units and not the ambush units (unless he reveals them with a spy or a scout).
    That would be a good way to set up a trap for enemy units.

    That can be tweaked around, but I would say that makes sense if the ambush is set inside a city zone area.

    Yes definitely, 4-5 units max.
    The more units in the stack the more chances for them to be discovered by the enemy.

    [quote[- Forrest and jungle only unless it is a marine then it can hide in a river tile.[/quote]
    Forests, jungles, and hills.
    Not sure about river tiles.

    I don’t see any reason for that.
    The player may want to spread is 5 units over 5 tiles for better effect.
    There is nothing wrong with that.

    Spies will reveal an ambush position when they stand on that tile automatically (to minimize unnecessary micromanagement).
    However, they will be then captured and destroyed.

    Spies will also have a chance to reveal ambush positions one tile away and that chance will be dependent on many variables (as I mentioned in previous posts).
     
  13. Xellos-_^

    Xellos-_^ Prince

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    it is enemy terrority and the enemy should know thier terrority better then the invaders.




    because the marines can hide in the river itself and only marines because they have the amph promotion. Makes the marine and amph a more useful unit and promotion.



    the spread out because it would be overpower if the enemy walk into a 3 side ambush by 15units.
     
  14. MosheLevi

    MosheLevi Prince

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    Yes of course, but we also need to make sure that “Ambush” is a viable option with good chances for success even in enemy territory.
    So how much exposure and risk to be discovered in enemy territory should be determined during testing.

    Sure, that makes sense.

    If I send 15 units inside enemy territory then instead of ambush I will just use them to sneak deep inside enemy territory (since they use guerilla methods and cannot easily be seen) and take out one of the undefended cities with the help of a spy starting a revolt.
    I would then bring to that city bombers and many guided missiles and destroy all tile improvements around.
    I think that would work better than ambush. ;)
     
  15. Xellos-_^

    Xellos-_^ Prince

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    well it doesn't have to be inside enemy terrority. it can inside the defender terrority. your 30unit stack of mounted units just ran into a ambush by 15pikeman :cringe: think that wouldn't put a crimp in your invasion plans.

    losses should be expected form being ambush but not half the army at one time.
     
  16. MosheLevi

    MosheLevi Prince

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    Yes, i see what you are saying.

    “Ambush” feature can easily be OP, or UP so lots of testing and careful tweaking needs to be done to insure that it works well for both sides.

    (A small correction, the mounted units will run only into 5 units and not 15).
     
  17. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    How about an ambush promotion that can be given to certain stock units, and later, marines, machine guns, and other such 'ambushy' units? This promotion would be needed to be able to go into ambush, along with the other restrictions. And, perhaps there could be some sort of new light artillery, or mortar unit, that can be used in ambush positions? I think this would add quite well to the advantages of ambush, with the ability to instantly bombard cities at the start of a war.

    As for setting ambushes in your own territory, I think that enemy civs should have a small chance (like, 2%) of seeing these ambushes, if they are within their line of sight. So as to make it easier to invade an enemy territory, and reduce the advantage of defenders.

    What do you think of my second set of conditions for ambush, MosheLevi?
     
  18. MosheLevi

    MosheLevi Prince

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    Yes, I think these are good ideas.
    This could work very well.

    Sneaking ambush units deep into enemy territory and attack a lightly defended city can definitely be a viable strategy.
    However, once ambush units enter combat they are discovered and their location in known.

    Since ambush positions can be revealed by spies and scouts then every army should have a spy or a scout leading the way to uncover ambush positions.
    That could work well for friendly and enemy territories.

    Setting ambush position in another civ’s territory (that doesn’t have open borders) will have diplomatic implications.
    That would make the implementation of the “Ambush” feature more complicated, so at this point I don’t want to further complicate the “Ambush” idea.

    I think it is a good idea to have a spy and/or a scout escorting guerilla (ambush) units in order to increase their line of site (and to uncover enemy’s ambush positions).
    But I don’t think it should be mandatory to include them with ambush units.
    Too many restrictions will make this feature unplayable.
     
  19. AlienSexFilth

    AlienSexFilth Warlord

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    Ambush : Promotion, Requires Woodsman 3
    Ambush only works in your area
    Must be in Forest/Jungle
    unit gets invisible (need a scout/explorer/spy to get detected)
    When unit attacks from ambush point, defender recieves no defensive modifiers (other than naturals) and attackers picks the BEST chances to win/worst enemy to defend. (ie : axeman vs spearman, pikeman vs knight, knight vs longbow)
     
  20. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    I'm starting to think that allowing a spy to uncover units set in ambush would be too easy, and would completely undermine the whole idea. There would need to be certain conditions for a spy to uncover units set in ambush, and maybe only have a 50% of doing so, or something. With railroads, a spy could sweep many tiles in the one turn, and so any ambushes would be useless, and too easily detected.

    I think if you don't make it mandatory, it will be too easy. You don't want a situation where whole wars rely on your ability to ambush, or involve purely ambushes, but a system where it can be used as an occasional element of surprise.

    It really is a matter of game balance with this idea. Getting it wrong either way would have a drastic and unbalanced effect on gameplay.
     

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