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Éa, The Ageless and the Divine (phase 2, alpha)

Discussion in 'Éa Fantasy Mod Project' started by Pazyryk, Dec 21, 2012.

  1. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    @400cats, Make sure you do everything in post#2. Are you trying a base game map? (e.g. Continents). I'm sure hotfix a doesn't do anything bad. It just replaces one of the existing AI files.

    It starts out OK I think. I want 2nd policy to come in at about the time of your 2nd tech. I guess the goal would be something like: 1 branch completed by turn 250 (no cultural effort) or 3 branches completed by turn 250 (strong cultural focus).

    One thing I might do is have the finishers actually consume culture. They all are "convert 1/3 of culture to _____". Right now that is all plus. What it could do is to take 1/3 of "excess culture" away. By excess I mean the amount in excess of what you need to maintain your current Cultural Level. Then 3 branches finished is the absolute end of policy progress. Unfortunately, that makes finishers kind of punitive. To counter that, the conversion could involve a 2x multiplier. Or maybe that's a bad idea altogether and I should just focus on lowering rate of advancement.

    Perhaps. So much to keep track of!
     
  2. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    OK, I'm seeing this too. But only when hitting Restart or starting a new game without fully exiting Civ5. Even if you don't get the "You are defeated!" window, there are multiple errors during startup that give you nonsensical effects (I just saw Man getting free Hunting and Writing).

    I've heard other modders suggest to always exit Civ5 fully before staring a new game. That's never been a problem for Ea before. But until I track these errors down, best to follow that advice...


    Edit: Yes, starting a new game without fully exiting is definitely a bad idea now. But I have a clue to the problem so I think I can track it down...
     
  3. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Hotfix b for v9. "Extract Here" in your mods folder.

    This fixes a database bug that could cause immediate "You are defeated!" window or strange game issues (e.g., no free tech or wrong free techs) when starting new game without fully exiting Civ5.

    Restart is also safe after hotfix b.
     
  4. 400cats

    400cats Chieftain

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    Downloaded hotfix b and the game works like normal again. You're really speedy with those hotfixes! It's greatly appreciated.

    Just played a game as Slavery/Agrarian. I was about to get my Slavery policies set up pretty well (Slave Markets and Slave Traders) when the game crashed to desktop with no Lua warnings at turn 146. From what I did experience, however, slavery was surprisingly viable. I had imagined it as just a way to get cheap workers, but by the end of the game I had about 8 on hand and more on the way. If I had managed to get a Slave Market for trading, I could have made a lot of money. I usually don't like playing as "the evil guys," but it turned out to be pretty entertaining!

    I also tried to be a warmonger for the first time in this game. I decided to start small by attacking a City-State. It was 7 pop with 18 defense. Not too hard, right? Wrong! I built 5 Light Infantry at either Combat 1 or 2, backed up by a Level 3 Warrior and 5% Morale. I figured with the 20% Siege bonus, I could take it pretty easily. It turns out I'm so used to using Composite Bowman to capture cities in regular civ, I forgot that attacking into cities with melee units will get you nowhere fast. I lost 3 Light Infantry before regrouping. I tried again about 30 turns later, without a Warrior but with 6 Light Infantry. I succeeded that time, but all my units were pretty badly beat up. The experience of taking a city was a lot harder than the last time I tried in v5.

    Some random things I noticed:

    -The AI functioned at various levels of competency. One AI (I'm not sure which) was spreading the Weave of Ea like a wildfire. Another massed a pretty nasty army of Crossbowmen and Chariots and went to war with its neighbor. It had an apparently strong Agrarian economy going. On the other hand, one civilization was still "Village of Man" at turn 146, and there was another unmet AI that had only 26 points the entire game.

    -In Regular View, the graphics for Farms don't appear on non-resource plots, and the graphics for Copper don't appear on grasslands. They both do in Strategic mode, though.

    -Unless I completely overlooked it, I don't think the Agartha bonus was functioning. I got the name, but none of my mining yields changed.
     
  5. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Post the Lua log for the crashed game. There might be something there. CTDs are hard to deal with and usually involve graphics in some way (whether mod-induced or due to a limit of your computer is sometimes hard to track down). There are a couple simple Lua errors that can cause a CTD though, so hopefully I can spot one of those.

    I'll check into the invisible farm and resource issues.

    Slavery is pretty evil the way I've designed it. In theory, you should be able to run a slave civ at -100 happiness. Military units with the Slave promotion have a flat -30 morale rather having it tied to civ happiness, so there is a threshold where they are actually better than non-slave units. Other bad effects are either reduced or eliminated.
     
  6. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    I was able to start and play games in v9. If I did a restart, I'd get the instant defeat.

    Man isn't getting their free tech at the start.

    I played as stereotypical elves yesterday (arty, woodland elves - missed out on Crecy, which was founded first but got Luchtain). I was ignoring the EA_BLOOM lua errors. By the time I got a different lua error, ~turn 267, my tribe had completed Tradition, Pantheism, Militarism, Commerce and was forced to start taking Slavery policies. It didn't fit my image of them so preventing a tribe getting more than 3 policies will help the tribes remain distinctive.
    [1] Once three policies have been opened, lock all of the other policy openers
    [2] I'd still give a benefit for closing out a branch
    [3] I'd give that cultural 1/3 hit when a second and third policy branch are opened rather than on branch completion. This would encourage completion of one branch before focussing on a second. (For those elves, the central path through Tradition, followed by the central path through Pantheism worked very well). You probably need to remove the final 1/3 of excess when the third branch is completed to avoid a policy being offered when none is available.
     
  7. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Hotfix b for both issues. (The tech thing is a symptom of the same problem, so I'm guessing you saw that on a restart or a new game where you hadn't shut down Civ5.)

    I put Bloom on my list of things to check. I may have broken it with some recent changes to Living Terrain.

    Clearly the policies need to be toned down. I'll adjust so that early progression is about the same but late progression is slowed down. Ideally, I don't want to punish for either opening or finishing branches. I think a Jack-of-all-trades approach should be viable (but not favored). But finishing does represent a deep commitment to a particular play style. Here's a possible solution:

    For each policy branch finished, you gain a yield or xp equal to 1/3 of your total culture generation per turn. For each policy branch finished after the 1st (so the 2nd, 3rd, etc.) you loose 1/3 of excess culture (the amount needed to to advance to the next Cultural Level). So now there is a strong incentive to finish your first branch. After that, you can take a bit of this or that, with finishing the next branch having a benefit and cost to consider. Once you finish 4 branches, policy advancement is absolutely halted (not that it should be easy to get 4 branches, but barely possible with a very strong cultural focus).
     
  8. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    mayhap, like for science, you could find a way to not make a "hard limit"..
    no idea how currently.. but I'll think about it .
    best regards
     
  9. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    It's not so much a hard-limit as a "safety shutoff". The game is more or less broken if you have to take (for example) Slavery when you don't want it. The situation will change somewhat in the future by additional policy branches. But 4 branches is a good total limit. You would be slowed by 1/3 and then 2/3s after completing your second and third branches, so it should result in a slow approach rather than a sudden stop. And only a very culture-focused civ can ever approach that (once I get the balance right).
     
  10. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    well, I'm not sure, but to have safety shuts-off that "snaps" only if begining or ending a policy tree seems not safety but hard limit.

    for me it's mainly that either policies are not expensive enough or there is not enough tree.

    4 complet branches would be a nice limit.. for mid-focused civs.
    but 6 for culture-focused ones..; why not ?

    with your proposition I would (theoretically) fill 1, then open 4-5 tree, fill them accordingly, and only terminate one when I can take the burden. (or maybe do as I read was done in chypria : never end any project (ie branch) save one).

    That's why I would propose a more soft limit, which would lead either to increasing costs or proportionaly decreasing

    maybe the same as for science but "tweaked"
    -1st tree is "free".
    for all other policy trees : each policy decrease excess culture by 10%
    some wonders / tech / great works increase culture by 10% (allowing in fact a further policy).

    thus you'll be able to get 1 tree + 10 policies +1 policy per wonder/great work

    or

    maybe each policy branch opened increase the "policy maintenance"... (which is what ? : 1/pop/policy ? )
    now, each branch opened increases this by 0.5.x (1+Y/W), with Y being the number of policy researched in that branch and W the number of policies in that branch

    thus with 2 completed branches, policy maintenance is : 3/pop/policy.
    with 1 branch full and 2 branches 'filled at half', you'll get a 3.5/pop/policy

    thus you'll gain on both aspects :
    -it is better to fill a branch than to dwabble in every branches.
    -however it is not totally crippling.
    -cost of policy maintenance increases... but it is a fixed number: the hard work of the player can overcome it.
     
  11. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Can't do with current 7 branches because 3 have exclusive relationships (Pantheism excludes 2 branches) and at least one of the remaining (Slavery) should be strictly optional. Even 4 will force a Pantheistic civ into Militarism, which is annoying if that goes against your civ flavor. In phase 3 they will have Arcana branch, so a high-culture pantheistic civ might do something like: Pantheism, Arcana, Tradition, and then either Commerce or Militarism.

    Have to be careful about how this is implemented so that Culture Level never goes down from gaining policy.

    But, instead of deducting 1/3 extra culture at finishers, I could deduct something like 1/20 extra culture for each policy adopted. All policies in your dominant branch (the one where you have most policies or that you finished first) are freebies so don't count against you. Finishers still give the 1/3 of total culture boost, so are always a good thing compared to picking a non-finisher policy.


    Edit: Another way entirely would be to detach Cultural Level from number of policies. I like the simplicity now of gaining a policy with each new integer value. But separating them would allow Cultural Level (which has other benefits) to continue to rise without being limited by the policy system. Cultural Level needed for next policy could start to increase (above the simple integer value) with each policy adopted outside of your dominant branch.

    Edit2: Or start increasing Culture Level needed for each policy after 10 total policies have been adopted. I don't like the idea that each policy branch has to be completed before opening another. The player should be able to explore around a little. Maybe open Commerce and adopt Mercenaries and then go on to other things. The finishers are enough incentive to complete branches.
     
  12. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    Lua log for you from that stereotypical elves game (hotfix a only).
     
  13. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Following on culture discussion above.

    Just to be clear, even Culture Level has a limit. Over time it approaches the value multiplier x total culture generation / total population. (So it can even go down.) IIRC, multiplier is currently set to 10.

    Let's say that a very culture-focused can get Culture Level up to 50 or so by generating 5 culture per pop for a long time (that seems pretty good) and that each policy to 10 costs 1.0 and each additional policy costs 0.1 more than the last. Our hypothetical civ above will need about 30 policies total to finish Pantheism and 3 other branches. Running this out in excel, it would take Culture Level = 51 to adopt the 30th policy. It would take Culture Level = 74.8 to get 7 more policies finishing a 5th branch.

    That still seems like we might be forced into a branch we don't want. Perhaps each policy after the 1st should have an added 0.1 cost. Running that out in Excel, it would take CL=12.6 to finish Pantheism (w/ 9 policies), then CL=28, 48.3, 73.5 to finish the next 3 branches (assuming 7 policies per branch). So you would need a sustained culture production of >7 per population point to start worrying about having to open a 5th branch. A more typical civ might generate 2 culture per population point and would be struggling to finish that 2nd branch. Maybe that's about right.

    Even after all the above, I could still add a mechanism that stops policy progression after 4 branches. So you would never be forced into Slavery even if you somehow generate a crazy amount of culture in a small population civ (players will always test the extremes, which is fine).




    Edit: I think I'm very close to the solution below. Always good to ponder things a while before coding.

    I can keep the simple rule of 1 policy per Cultural Level if I just complexify the CL equation a little. Right now it approaches 10 x total culture generated / total pop. All I really need to do is put a fractional exponent on total culture generated. Say, 10 x total culture generated^0.5 / total pop. Now a civ generating 5c/pop approaches 22 policies (about 3 branches finished). But you would need 9c/pop to approach 30 policies for a full 4 branches. Things look pretty OK on the low-culture end too: even only 1c/pop would (eventually) get you to 10 policies to finish one branch.

    @Lplate: Wow! turn 285! Do you happen to remember the "approach value" for your Cultural Level. Not CL itself (I can see that). If you look in the policy window there is a line at the bottom that says something like "10 x culture / population:". I'm guessing this was somewhere in the range of 6, which would mean that you were approaching CL 24 in the system above (but in the present time would be at a lower CL, maybe still halfway through your 3rd branch).

    Edit2: never mind. I can back calculate that value. Looks like you had a historical average of about 4.3c / pop. So that would give you an "approach" CL of 20, with present value probably 15 or so. That seems low for a very culture-focused game. No problem though. I'll just increase that exponent to 0.6 or 0.7 and try that...
     
  14. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    Last test game reached turn 300 (Isallin, going for Theist focus). The only lua error was the ignored EA_SPELL_BLOOM error. I ran out of research at 12 tech (not including Tomes).

    • Shrine says it requires the Pantheist policy but is used when you're Theist.
    • I find that I tend to get more sages than I want. Can you allow for more specialist slots in buildings to give the player more control over who they'll get?
    • The king/queen dies whenever you load a saved game.
    • I purchased fishing boats on the same turn that a city was finishing building them. I got the messages that they could not find a suitable tile. Purchased fishing boats again later in the same city and it claimed a crab tile.
    • I ended up with no way to access the other continent. Sailing was the last tech I researched before having to rely on Tomes and there was Ocean dividing us. Would it be a possibility to allow Units to embark from Friendly/Allied Maritime/Mercantile citystates with the ability to enter ocean tiles (for payment of a fee/turn)? Once such a unit landed, they'd need to go back to a maritime citystate to enter the water again. Edit: You might allow Mercenary tribes with Sailing and later techs to provide a similar naval transportation service for a fee to other tribes.
    • My (only) devout converted my entire continent. They were all men. The two Sidhe tribes were on the other continent. Can Sidhe be converted? What happens if a civ has adopted Pantheist policies and then their entire population is converted to a Theist religion?

    Has the Tome of the Leviathan been included yet?
     
  15. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    The mercenary system is shaping up nicely. I'm pretty far on the UI (which is impressive if I may say so) and will be getting into AI issues soon. Can't say how long it will take, but I don't see this as a difficult AI issue. It is a market based system that should run itself (more or less) from unit need and surplus. (Note: in v9 right now you can "put units up for hire" with Mercenaries policy. It just doesn't do anything.)

    Mercenaries are a big part of the City State system, as many CSs that are not suppliers themselves are dependent on mercenaries for their defense. It also ties into the Morale system (as does Slavery) so I'm reproducing the relevant doc sections below. The Morale and Slave Army system is already in the game. I'm including here because it is new in the manual, and so you see how it all fits together:


    Morale
    Morale applies a percent bonus or penalty to melee and ranged strength. Most units have a baseline morale equal to the owning civilization's happiness (Mercenaries and Slave Armies are exceptions; see below). Morale can be increased or decreased temporarily by a variety of factors, most importantly the actions of Great Warriors. A unit's morale will shift naturally toward its baseline each turn by half the difference between current and baseline morale.

    Mercenaries
    You can hire Mercenaries from civilizations that have the Mercenaries policy and Mercenary City States with which you are friends or allies. If you have the Mercenary policy yourself, then there is no friendship requirement and you receive a hiring price discount for friendship or allied status (10% and 20%, respectively). All of these rules apply in reverse if you have the Mercenaries policy yourself, allowing you to put your own units up for hire and find potential customers. Most city states that are not Mercenary themselves are potential customers. In fact, some depend entirely on mercenary defense. AI players will consider unit stats, unit location and need when considering mercenaries for hire, so it sometimes may be necessary to "shop them around". Mercenary costs include both upfront and per turn gold, based on unit statistics including promotions, and normal unit support (1gpt and possibly one or two strategic resources). All of this information and more can be viewed for all units available for hire (and currently hired mercenaries) from the Mercenaries UI panel, accessed from the Diplo Corner or from a Mercenary City State's dialog popup. Mercenaries remain hired as long as the hiring civilization pays the per turn cost. Per turn costs are paid until a mercenary is killed or dismissed (dismissed Mercenaries return to their civilization of origin).

    Mercenary morale is not affected by civilization happiness. Baseline morale is zero, though it drops to -20 if the hiring civilization is at war with the mercenary's civilization of origin. It can be shifted temporarily by various factors including the actions of Great Warriors.

    Slave Armies
    Civilizations with the Slave Armies policy can capture defeated military units (must be non-mechanical living units) and can upgrade Slaves to Warriors (which can be upgraded subsequently through the infantry line). All of these units forever carry the Slave promotion which sets their baseline morale at -30. This value is unaffected by civilization happiness, but can be shifted temporarily by various factors including the actions of Great Warriors. Slave Armies cannot be hired out as mercenaries.


    Edit: Plan for Hippus is to give them a promotion that makes their horse-mounted units stronger as hired mercenaries. These units will be favored by AI when it is looking to hire. The civ name is obtained by learning Horseback Riding and opening Commerce branch. The AI seems to be good at getting this in v9. They get the Mercenaries policy instantly on naming (not really for "free" because it counts against Culture Level).
     
  16. MrL567

    MrL567 Warlord

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    While you most likely have ideas for the arcane tech line, I have an idea for it, which includes another more violent way to fall.

    After you got the first basic arcane tech you will be introduced to another tree of techs, which are mostly ways of casting magic. This includes Fire/Water/Earth/Air/Light/Dark/Beast/Arcane

    In each line, you will get a few (1/2) spells related to that, along with a upgrade to a building.

    EX:Fire

    Spells: Firebolt
    Basic Fire spell:
    Fire bolt: 8+caster level in damage. Deals 1-10 extra damage to target for next 1-3 turns. Drains mana 1/2 of direct damage.
    To Cinders. Remove forest,marsh, and jungle instantly. 3 Mana for forest and Marsh, 5 for Jungle.

    Building Upgrade:
    Forge: Grants an extra 1 production and increase production speed of units by 5%.

    You can gain other spells by the paths, you just need either another tech, or an item, so these objects are the basics that you do not need to find.

    The second tier is were the second way to fall comes in. The paths will lead to Lava/Ice/Metal/Lightning/Radiance/Abyss/Draconic/Psi

    At the second stage, this is when the lockout occurs also, so if you go fire and go to lava, you could not get ice, or if started water. This is to keep balance, but allows more more combos in the end.

    The fall comes from the lore of Abyss, while going into darkness is fine, because you can still use it for good, going into Abyss is going of the deep end into the darkest magics ever known, you instantly fall once you finish researching abyss, and as such become an enemy to all civs that have not fallen. T2 magic includes many more spells, but is often more deadly and takes more mana.

    An example of this in Abyss Magic, while it will have very extreme consequences due to its nature, it is a fine example of the result.

    Abyss Spells:
    Defile Earth: Causes a tile to become ravaged with decay (fallout), mana usage is equal to yield of tile x5. Can be casted multiple times.

    Summon Abyssal Knight: Summons an Abyssal Knight, who has movement 4, STR 30 and Made from Nightmare promotion (causes 20% fear in all enemy units 2 hexs near it) and seige 1. Requires 500 Mana to create, and causes a sacrifice of 1-3 population on city(unlike illnesses, this can destroy a city)

    Despoiled Army: Converts a unit to a despoiled form of it. Unit look become darker and mutated. Increases that units STR by 2 (Light Infantry become 11 STR for example) and gives the Sin Eater Promotion (When it kills a unit, completely heals. For every 3 units killed, gains 1STR) Requires the units STR in mana x5+10 plus a sacrifice of 1 population in one of your cities.

    A shown. these spells have very powerful and nasty affects, so they are expensive, cause the alternate fall, and will become a nightmare in game. Just hope everyone does not gang up on you.


    Examples of Spells gained by Techs/Materials.

    Create Golem: Creates a 13 STR Stone Golem which has cover 2 promotion and seige 1. Requires a source of stone in city, masonry, Earth Lore tech, and 75 Mana.

    Shadow Shield: Makes a unit temporarily invisible to all enemy units. Requires Chemistry and Darkness Lore. Costs 30 Mana+ that Units STR.

    Costs can be raised or lowered depending on Mana production in the end.
     
  17. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    So much of this is easily added to the existing spell system ... if only I had a unit artist helping out. (Not necessarily an artist, just someone who will convert Civ4 units.)

    Some neat ideas above. Somehow we have to allow evil civs to be able to burn up 1000000 mana points (not easily, of course) for the victory condition. And the good side (or at least the not so evil side) has to get equal attention. So that's a lot of room and gameplay reason to develop spells.
     
  18. Vinnz

    Vinnz Chieftain

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    I played a few games with v9b.
    Congratulations, most of the areas improved during the last month...

    The mod is generally quite stable until year 125. The most frequent Lua error is about the spell bloom, generally showing up between turn 125 and 250.


    Bugs, remarks and questions:

    - When at war, if I move a great merchant to an enemy city, he conquererd it (although city is at full health)

    -AI seem to be able to develop rather properly (although they can (rarely) have no name at turn 100). As an example: I've seen combined armies of chariots and catapults conquer city states or other AI, and an army of warriors and archers march towards my cities (which was doing fine against my units, but lacked firepower to take a defended city)

    - GP and workers: if the gp is moving to a tile containing a worker, they stack; if the worker is moving to a tile containing a gp, they exchange their position

    - the health system is working (i could see my pop numbers drop because of disease)

    -the newly added slavery policies seem to work properly (can convert pop to slaves, can sell slaves in cities with a slave market; can upgrade slaves to slave warriors)

    -social policy progress can be extremely quick in early game: I as Eleuterios could finish the tradition tree by turn 85, using the tile culture bonus on grapes, wineries, artefacts and a great artist, but without techs dedicated to culture (eg no drama, no music...).

    -the new system for camps and fishing boats is quite interesting

    -the tech tree in the manual p28 is outdated

    -what is the imperial road?

    -Many ressources, many techs... the ressource distribution around my starting spot (including potential sites dor my second city) can have a huge impact on the early game. Probably working as intended, but will not be easy to balance.

    -Any plans for the missing opening policies? Although the gp is given at second policy, it's a bit disappointing to choose (especially in the early game) a policy without benefits...
     
  19. hbee

    hbee Chieftain

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    This seems to be a very interesting mod. However, in my tests, the GUI seems to be quite a bit WIP. Many units and tooltips are missing their text strings or they have the wrong one. Is this correct behaviour or did I mess the installation?
     
  20. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    The mod is certainly a work in progress. There are help texts missing and I haven't gotten to the pedia much. But if you are seeing TEXT_KEY_ in place of unit names (or wrong unit strings) then something is wrong with your installation.
     

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