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Éa, The Ageless and the Divine (phase 2, alpha)

Discussion in 'Éa Fantasy Mod Project' started by Pazyryk, Dec 21, 2012.

  1. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    It's a tough call, whether to do lots of little versions or big ones. I made the mistake with v6 of working on too many things at once, thinking I could get it to "feature complete" (for phase 2 anyway) in one big push. Result was that my working build was all taken apart and not working for 2 months. Folks loose interest after a while...
     
  2. 400cats

    400cats Chieftain

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    You're right, it's probably a hardware issue on my end. I'm running this on an unmodified Macbook, which has both a small screen and a limited capacity for graphics and memory. I'm going to see what I can do to prevent crashes on my end; I think that if I play exclusively in Strategy View and on a Small/Tiny map size I might not have as many problems.

    After the few initial hiccups and the hotfixes that smoothed them over, I was able to play a pretty complete game for a good amount of turns. v6 had some game-breaking issues, but you got to them pretty fast. Personally, I'd go for smaller updates; they seem easier and less time-consuming and difficult to pull off then huge updates. I know I wouldn't be able to handle a huge update :crazyeye:

    On another note, I just finished finals and now have a bit more time to work on some hobbies, one of which is learning basic 3d art. I've been looking at a couple of Blender tutorials on the forums (mostly Converting cIV regular units and Converting cIV mounted units) and I'm hoping to learn the basics of unit modeling. Hopefully, I'll eventually be able to both convert units from other games into CiV and reskin them. Once I get going with that, I might be able to start reskinning some models for Ea's purposes. I'm gonna start with just making some fancy-looking swordsmen to be safe.
     
  3. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    This will break some of the combat functions. That's true for all mods that do stuff linked to unit combat and haven't modded the DLL to work properly in strategic view (and DLL mods can't be played on Macs).

    Might be time to switch over to the dark side. You would need a PC to do the 3d graphics since this requires a bunch of different applications, all free but probably not available on Mac (though I could be wrong). If that isn't enough for you, Éa will become a DLL mod eventually (though I don't know when...).
     
  4. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    wait, I'm talking of the feedback on culture, some combat etc that you got in the last two pages, nothing that big I think :)

    what combat features are broken in strategic, btw?
     
  5. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Off the top of my head:
    • The great warrior GP point for combat with barbs
    • Resetting morale after Lead Charge and Rally Troops
    • Chance of great warrior death after Lead Charge (maybe that's a plus ;))
    • Slave Raider promotion allowing you to generate a Slaves unit from killed military units
    • [in v10] Ranged units taking cities if they knock them down to 1 hp
    • [coming someday] Summoners getting experience when summoned units attack or defend
     
  6. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    farewell, strategic view :D
     
  7. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    The game is playable and stable at the moment. There's enough there, at the moment, for anyone who wants to try it out or do a bit of bug hunting. The victory conditions in v10 should make it finishable. If the next version just got those victory conditions in, without any other suggestions implemented, I think it would be a massive leap forward.

    ---

    (Now back to those other suggestions and queries)

    It's a minor thing but would it be possible to have the replay graphs at the end of the game identify the Tribe names instead of just Sidhe/Man. It might help to spot if some AI tribes are consistently unsuccessful/successful or when they tend to peter out.

    Will Merchant GP be able to assassinate other GP at any stage? Assassination would be particularly useful if a neighbouring civ GP is developing a tome/epic/wonder that the assassin's tribes has the pre-requisites for.

    If two GP are constructing wonders in a city and there's a production shortfall;
    are the available hammers divided evenly between the projects,
    does the project by the more experienced GP get the most hammers or
    does the project which is closer to completion get the most hammers?

    Minor Work Suggestion: Council of the Wise (or something suitably mispronouncable)
    - only buildable by Man
    - can only be built in a city when there are 4 different types of GP present
    - can be built by any type of GP
    - provides an increase in the chance of a GP being born for all types of GP that the civ can use, except those types of GP who are currently alive in the civ

    New naming event suggestion
    - first to kill off another civilisation
    - possible benefit would be cheaper/lower maintenance first/second tier units and then a penalty of more expensive higher tier units
     
  8. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    about Lplate's naming suggestion, maybe first to conquer a city would be more viable, as conquering a whole civ without being named sounds quite a feat (considering you can't even build settlers, can't have leaders, etc)
     
  9. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    True but I expected that if you managed to conquer a city before another naming event, that the other civ probably wouldn't have a second city.
     
  10. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Could be done in an early rush, especially if city states were included...

    That's phase 3, and it will be a lot of work to get these working properly (new techs, spells, etc.). I suppose I could get Conquest working before that. But I'd rather focus now on clearing up all the loose ends on phase 2. Then I can dedicate a whole phase of development to adding and balancing victory conditions.
     
  11. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    I'm not saying it can't be done, but I wouldn't expect anyone but the player (no AI) who specifically aims for it to do it. I thought the general pholosophy on civ spawn was that it is more tied to the situation in the game, where you spawn, who your neighbors are, etc, then to which route you decide to take before even hitting the play button.
     
  12. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    I have no idea how well a very early rush works in the mod. I'd love to hear folks experience with that. Too easy? Too hard? Impossible? In base Civ5 it is possible to build 6 warriors and go take a city. Not easy, mind you. It requires a close neighbor and maybe another lucky break (the civ has been softened by barbs or you got a scout->archer goody). But possible. And the AI has done this to me more than once at Immortal difficulty. I can't remember if I've ever seen AI do it to another AI.

    So at least in theory it is a reasonable early naming condition. I'll save this for Heldeofol though. The AI Heldeofol civs aren't going to have much to build except military, so I think they will go after you and each other.
     
  13. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    Crecy seems to be a very common tribe for the AI. Whatever strategy is currently being used for them, they always do abysmally. Probably the same strategy that a load of other tribes are failing with but its just noticable because they seem to feature and do badly in every game.

    Will the improvement for Reagents be in phase 3 along with the other magical stuff?
     
  14. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    The reason Crecy is too common is that civs seek it if they have a lot of Yew resource, and that resource got a big boost in v9. I'll lower the weighting for that.

    If they suck, I'm guessing the reason is that they usually open the Militarism branch first and try to complete that. Some others that do this are Vinca, Goban, Gerzah, Sisukas and Agartha. They should open Ag first if they have some nice river flatland (and they aren't pantheistic), and they should be going for techs related to nearby resources (especially food), but I'm not sure if the weightings are large enough on those. If they are truly crippled, it is probably related to not getting the right food techs. If they are just mildly poor compared to other civs, it might be that Militarism is poorly competitive with other branches. Well, it absolutely is if you aren't using your military. Maybe I need to think about some way to link that branch to actual AI behavior. It's a total waste for a non-aggressive AI.

    The gatherer's hut will be in v10.
     
  15. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    Hi,

    I think I've only tried Agrarian twice (in my early test games) and I didn't get far with it. In fact, if I'm planning on going for Tradition/Commerce/Militarism, I tend to open Pantheism just because it makes it so much easier to deal with the terrain.
    Generally, the landscape hasn't been suited to Agrarianism. I tend to play on Small and Standard and there's an abundance of resources in the surroundings. If resources on the map were rarer, then the balance might tip a little bit of the way back towards Ag from Pan. Perhaps that happens anyway on the larger maps.
    Pantheism gets shed loads of bonuses from resource tiles.
    The culture bonuses help a Pantheist tribe progress through the policies faster. Once they hit Forest Dominion, they can spread across massive areas of the map.

    If I understand it right, Agrarian needs a specialist economy to be worthwhile. As it stands, the Pantheists get more food out of all of the improvements on resource tiles than the Ag get from their farms and pastures on resource tiles. The non resource tiles are only viable if they produce more than the three food required to support the worker on them. I'm not sure how many techs it takes for a non resource farm to become viable (I assume irrigation plus some other tech).

    Anyway, after the meandering intro I thought I'd throw out a few suggestions to beef up/encourage Agrarianism.
    1 Make resources rarer
    2 When Agrarianism is opened, lower the value of all forests, etc within the tribe's borders. Seeing a potential jungle is going to overrun your resources before you can develop them is a major deterrent at the start of the game from opting for Ag. Possibly, reduce all marshes/forests/jungles within the border when the policy is opened to 0 and reduce those around the border by 1. This gives an Ag civ a fighting chance of establishing itself.
    3 Give the Ag tribes something for plantations.
    4 As a counter to the Pantheists Forest Dominon territorial sprawl, I suggest that workers in an Ag tribe (not sure what policy/tech you'd link it to) could "stake a claim"/"pioneer"/build a "homestead". Essential idea is that it's an improvement which is built outside your borders, which will keep forests, etc at bay but more importantly expands the tribe's territory into that tile. A homestead would be regarded as fairly self sufficient, so it doesn't cost any maintenance but doesn't contribute anything if within the working radius of a city.
    5 Give a bonus in markets/fairs for every x farms within the city's cultural borders that are not on resource tiles.
    6 There could be an Epic limited to Ag tribes (with Tradition). It could provide a mod% boost to food production.

    I'm not sure whether something extra is needed to make their non resource tiles viable sooner. I'd need to check what tech boosts they can get apart from Irrigation. When playing as a Pantheist, I've never bothered to research irrigation.

    ----
    Yew resource isn't revealed until you have Archery, at which stage you've become Crecy. I don't know if AI has a little extra visibility to help them along.

    Militarism is viable if used in combination with Tradition/Pantheism to keep the culture train rolling. When the tribes who gain culture from kills are back in, it could be a powerhouse for them. As you say, it will be dependent on using it aggressively - pacifistic militarists aren't going to accomplish much.

    I assumed you'd be tweaking the aggressiveness as part of the next phase victory conditions. A few aggressive AI are needed. As it stands, a player can choose to develop along any path they want without being forced to develop a military early to defend themselves. If the city defences were weakened, it would encourage developing military units to defend or at least.building walls (no reason at moment) or castles(only do it for the gold and culture).

    I think I once gained a natural harbor in my capital when I researched the tech (at least I didn't remember building it). Cities founded where there should be a natural harbor after researching the tech still didn't get the free harbor. Is the free harbor from a natural harbor location maintenance free?
     
  16. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    I had written a long post about why the AI most likely would not even try a rush while being unnamed, especially against another civ that can't expand.
    Anyways... in short, being the FIRST civ to conquer a city(state) (which can mean a whole civ in some cases) while unnamed, hence with only one city at your disposal and no leaders, is a condition hard enough compared to any other... that's the main point.

    The AI is aware that a tech awards visibility for a strategic resource and will therefore prioritize research of such techs, that's what Pazyryk meant, I believe.

    Militarism: militarism sucks because its initial steps aren't even worth looking at. Note that in vanilla civ, such policy (Honor) gives bonus to culture and happyness not merely the military. Besides, last I checked Militarism provides nothing as a first step, so obviously anyone going that route first is at a disadvantage at this stage.

    Challenge: play with raging barbarians (I always do) for additional challenge and avoid continents/archipelago maps. I advise Oval with high waters.
     
  17. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    The AI is cheating in the case of naming conditions. They have perfect knowledge of surrounding terrain (for this purpose) without even exploring. There are not too many cases of AI cheating in the mod but this is one. The base game does this kind of cheating too. It's partly a programming issue. It would be a lot of work for me (and a lot of extra processing overhead) for AI to evaluate naming conditions each turn after revealing new plots. So it's all done once when they settle the first city, though it can run again if they miss out to another player. But it's a time-consuming function. That's why the Waiting-For-Other-Players time is noticeably long after the first turn.

    Another place where I'm actively building a cheat is the case of the two theistic religions. I want to make sure that at least one player is pursuing each of these in every game. To do that AIs are going to be looking at the current plans of other AIs. You could say that these cheats are there to give you an interesting game with geographically appropriate civs and at least the potential for a good vs evil conflict.

    Speaking of cheating, one reason the AI may seem poor and not aggressive at all is that I haven't added back some of the difficulty level bonuses. That part of the game needs attention (along with 20 other things). The AI is more aggressive when it has a lot of units to fight with, and (at least in the base game) this is accomplished by handicap bonuses. (Note: I hate handicap bonuses. I'd far rather make a truly competitive AI. But that's hard to do.)
     
  18. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Haven't seen any comments on policy progression since hotfix d. Does that seem OK now?
     
  19. 400cats

    400cats Chieftain

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    I feel like having a naming condition that can only be reasonably attempted by the human player (aka off limits or impossible for the AI) is a bit odd, as all the other conditions are basically fair game for everyone. On the other hand, having some difficult conditions like that might make things a bit more interesting for people who want to challenge themselves.

    Another idea: if I remember correctly, Pazyryk mentioned that there would be secondary, smaller naming conditions that could be reached after getting your civ name. Being the first to capture a city would fit well in the middle of a "condition path." Perhaps the naming condition could be "Be the first civ to disperse a Barbarian encampment," and it'd be followed by other conquering objectives, like "Be the first civ to conquer a city-state," "Be the first civ to raise a city," "be the first civ to capture another civ's capital," etc. Also, "Be the first civ to extort a city-state" could be a fun naming condition.

    In the couple of games I've played since hotfix d, the policy progression has curved rather well. The first few turns are obviously a bit lopsided, but after you gain some population and build a monument (or not), the culture gain evens out. Being next to cultural improvements like incense and marble is still a pretty good early boon, and I got more culture when playing as Pantheist civs in general.

    This is true. Commerce, Militarism, and Tradition suffer from not having any real opening effect, while Agrarianism and Slavery give a nice initial bonus and Pantheism and Theism completely change the game's gameplay. In addition, Militarism is a fairly one-note tree right now, like onedreamer said. It only gives boosts to your military; the problem is, your military won't be that useful if you have no economic/cultural/happiness bonuses to back it up. I think it should be modeled more like the vanilla civ Honor track and your current Pantheist and Commerce tracks: they improve all aspects of your civilization, via one route. Commerce gives you money, but it also improves your military with the mercenary ability and has benefits for city-state diplomacy. Pantheism give a couple of resource bonuses, but it also gives you access to new trading partners in the form of the Fay and allows you to expand further through the Forest Dominion policy. Commerce is centered on gold and Pantheism is centered on religion, but they improve all aspects of your empire.

    I have a pretty old PC at home that can run Civ IV and barely run Civ V. It's slower than my laptop, but I'm pretty sure it can handle more in terms of graphics. With any luck, it should play Ea without any graphics crashes and be able to run the programs needed to convert units from Civ IV to V and reskin them. Hopefully I'll eventually have enough excuses to get a shiny new PC, but until then I'll see if I can reduce the graphics strain on my laptop and try to use Boot Camp or something for when the DLL is modded. Even if the game keeps crashing around turn 150, I'll at least have 150 turns of playtesting and notes. :)
     
  20. Vinnz

    Vinnz Chieftain

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    I tried to generate a high culture from stone and gems in a rather peaceful game (man, prince), (using buildings + social policies). The tradition tree was finished around turn 120. I couldn't see the progress rate reducing much as I progressed in the tree (However I couldn't raise it higher). Seems ok to me until this point.

    Some more elements :
     

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