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Éa, The Ageless and the Divine (phase 2, alpha)

Discussion in 'Éa Fantasy Mod Project' started by Pazyryk, Dec 21, 2012.

  1. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    This won't affect v10 or any versions in the near future, but...

    Are there too many civs in Éa? Right now there is one for every 2nd tier tech, [planned: one for every 2nd policy in a branch], one for most 2nd teir units, and others. I just counted and there are 50 that are in or will be in when the policy civs are added back. There are pros and cons that I can think of:

    Pros:
    • Variety in civs met from game to game.
    • Makes it more likely that human player can get the civ name he/she wants, or at least something similar if beat to the first naming condition.
    Con:
    • Darn hard for me to come up with unique and memorable traits for each civ.

    Ideally, each civ should have something special that really affects how they play. Mamonos gets interest on treasury, so has incentive to hoard massive amounts of gold. Hippus (in v10) makes units that are much favored by other players as mercenaries, so is likely to base their economy around that. But let's face it: most of the 50 civs are boring and even I don't remember what they are. (Some UI would help here, of course, but I'm not sure if that is enough.) The fallback trait for too many, due to lack of imagination on my part, is some resource or improvement yield boost.

    I'm certainly capable of programming interesting traits, but can we think of 50 that stand out enough to remember? Should I pare that down to 25? Or 10? If so, what kinds of naming conditions would there be? How would we deal with players getting beaten to naming conditions?



    Edit: below is how a reduced civ name system would look. Just four here but it would probably start with 15 or so and expand slowly, with each civ being unique and memorable. This also incorporates the idea of a "2nd trait" that is earned sometime later in the game (but now restricted by your initial name).

    Mamonos (Coinage, Mercantilism, or 1000 Gold in treasury). +2 gold from Gold and Silver. When Commerce branch finished, earn 0.5% on treasury per turn.
    Ys (Library, Philosophy or Scholasticism). Earns extra 0.5 research per population in capital. When Transcendental Knowledge learned, Knowledge Maintenance is reduced by an extra 1% per known tech.
    Ikkos (Horseback Riding or 3 improved Horses resources). +1 culture from Horses and gain 1 extra Horse from each city that already has one. When War Horses learned, +20% production and +10xp for horse-mounted units.
    Hippus (Horseback Riding and Commerce). Gains Mercenaries policy. Horse-mounted units have the Strong Mercenaries promotion, making them 20% stronger when hired by other civilizations (and favored by AI civilizations and city states that hire mercenaries). When Commerce branch finished, earn +20% from all hired mercenaries.
    Etc...

    The main downside to this approach would be a much fiercer competition for your initial name (which I don't like, but may be necessary for these to really stand out).
     
  2. Sezneg

    Sezneg Warlord

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    IMO this depends on how much cheating you end up having to give the AI. With a limited amount of cheating, a race for a name would be fun. With too much AI cheating it would be extremely frustrating on the higher difficulty settings IMO.
     
  3. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Well, even if I remove the AI resource awareness, which is the only cheating I've added, you still have the handicap bonuses to research and policy advancement. The AI will always beat human at Emperor+ if it beelines to a name-giving tech or policy. There's nothing I can do about that ... other than remove handicap bonuses ... but then higher difficulties won't be higher difficulty anymore.

    Perhaps that's reason enough to keep the 50 civs...
     
  4. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    well, my question is the following : how many civs can play together on a given map ?

    .. then you 'll get part of the answer.
    as the names are given by "naming conditions", you cannot have duplicates of one name.. (as can happen in current civ if you install 3russian civ in the map) thus you limite the number of "playable" civs.

    so if 30 civs on a huge map is possible, then 50 naming conditions is a minimum.

    if you "hardcode" that there cannot be more than 10 civs on map, then 25 or 30 naming conditions is ok.


    then I liked what you proposed first :
    -50 naming conditions (maybe propose "only" 30..)
    then add further 30-50 secondary traits... which each can be "earned" by 2-5 of each civ. (maybe not by every body : naval-focused should not be able to get horse related traits;. but it could access pillage related traits or mercenaries related traits...)
    so if you "lost" the "horse" race, you can still go "animal husbandry" or "hunting" or the secondary name for "horses" and get a name less fitted to your goal, but with second traits, you can come closer.. you don't get as much synergy, but still.



    another option would be to allow "duplicates" of a name, but with an increasing "malus" and further conditions:
    (maybe then you should use your 25 or so "stronger names".
    ex : second to Ys conditions
    -name is "Ys-kholopia" (from "kholop", roughly slavic for "errand boy" :p)
    you get Ys's bonis, decreased by 20%, can access the second effect of the Ys name, also with 20% malus.
    - get +20%effect if vassal to Ys (Ys get +20% to it's stats)
    - get +10%effect if allied to Ys (Ys get +10% to it's stats
    - get +10% effect (permanent) if Ys is destroyed (Ys get +10% to it's stats if it destroys you)

    OR :
    get "always war with Ys" :D as you are jealous and second.

    then third to the race get :
    -name is "Ys-thrallia" (from "thrall", roughly gaelic for "slave" :p)
    you get Ys's bonis, decreased by 40%, can access the second effect of the Ys name, also with 40% malus.
    ...Etc
     
  5. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    Hi,

    I think that 50 civs is fine.

    Your original plan was for the player to write the history of the civ. If too many bonuses are tied into the initial naming condition, you could just have an FFH effect were the identification of who the civs are is only delayed a little, i.e. there will be a identifiable approach to playing a number of civilizations.

    I think your plan to have secondary and tertiary civilization traits linked to later techs/activities is preferable to tying it all down to that first naming event. Later traits give the civs the flexibility to adapt to the world.
    e.g. Mayd might be the best call based on the capital cities starting location but early exploration could reveal that a switch from the sea to land resources might be a better move given the possible expansion locations.

    First to finish a particular policy branch would be a good additional trait trigger, possibly linked with other pre-requisites. A seafaring trader or a plantation slaver might like to get the benefit of that +0.5% on treasury and anyone who uses mercenaries could use that 20% from all hired mercenaries.

    Rather than giving the benefits you suggested to a named civ, I'd leave it open for them to be earned by whoever wanted them
    (Commerce Branch finished and 1000 Gold in treasury) earn 0.5% on treasury per turn
    (Commerce Branch finished and 5 units hired out as mercenaries) earn +20% from all hired mercenaries
    (Transcendental Knowledge learned and University in every city), Knowledge Maintenance is reduced by an extra 1% per known tech.
    (When War Horses learned and 3 horse units with x xp), +20% production and +10xp for horse-mounted units.
    .
    .
    .

    (I do realise that this would involve an enormous amount of extra work for you compared with the define all future benefits when named approach.)

    I disagree with Calavente's errand boy and thrall suggestions. I think that this would lead to too much similarity between the civs, with some at an obvious disadvantage.

    Incidentally, the Mamonas are a civ that goes off the charts with money at the moment, even without that extra 0.5% boost. Granted, I've aimed for them when there's 3 gold/silver in their vicinity and gone on a commerce focus.

    ---

    On a separate topic, I noticed a minor issue with a Druid. He'd wandered onto a tile which had mountains on 4 sides and then another civ's forces occupied the other two tiles. He did not have a sleep or wait a turn option. He was able to cast a spell to pass the time until the other units moved out of the way. If he didn't have the spell or it was not castable due to the terrain, this might have forced killing of the Druid to allow the game to continue.

    I quite like Forest Dominion and have seen the AI using it. What are the equations behind it? Is it based on Mana levels/Mana acquisition per turn, the number value of the forest/jungle, other ownership, beliefs (i.e. are they Pantheist?) of current owner, number of adjacent owned tiles?
    I've seen the AI conquer an enemy city and have their control spread out through the forests around it. When the city is retaken by the original owner the forests remain with the Forest Dominion player even though they are not linked territorially to any city owned by that player? Should tiles claimed by Forest Dominion revert to unowned if there is no territorial link between them and city claimed tiles?
    I haven't tried it but what would happen to a Forest Dominion tile if someone cut the forest/jungle down on it? Should it become unowned if that happens?
     
  6. Lyrrix

    Lyrrix Chieftain

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    So... fastest Lua error ever? Maybe? haha Anyways, it's attached.

    ===================================================

    So on to my comments:
    So far this mod looks really interesting. I like the fact that you're competing for your name, and you don't start out as a specified civ.

    Starting locations could use a boost to food output still. Although in my game my first city had One cattle, three boars, two Stone, an Iron, and a Gems within 3 tiles of the city. I'd say a minimum of two Food heavy resources (cattle, wheat, fish, etc.) should be required, but mostly because of my playstyle.

    I went Theistic (a totally random choice) and was pretty much forced into a wide/militaristic playstyle by the map around me. This is certainly a new for me as I tend to play tall/builder in the early game and then switch to a massive expansionist during the late-classical period. (My Roman Empires are positively massive. lol) I don't mind the change in playstyle, it's nice to do something different for once, but being goaded into it wasn't too pleasant.

    I ended up surrounded by pantheistic Sidhe groups, but was on good terms with each when I stopped playing.

    RESEARCH.... oh boy. With pretty diverse selection of available resources most of my tech choices went to being able to utilize those resources. I managed to get to Writing, Iron Working, and was just about to start on Astronomy when suddenly my civilization went stupid. Not to mention that three of my cities completely ran out of things to build (except workers/settlers/warriors) as I'd built every available building and run out of resources to build more Heavy/Light Infantry/Chariots... It doesn't make any sense to me how 7 cities (5 of which have a 6~8 population) all running a library and it's specialist, can't manage to generate research. Perhaps I'm doing something wrong and should have gone Tradition instead of Theistic? It just seems a little crazy to be running that much :c5science: creation, but to be unable to use it. I guess I'll go re-read the manual in case I missed something, but this seems silly to me.

    Other than that, I do look forward to seeing where this mod goes. It's at least a good breakaway from standard CiV.

    EDIT: One other note: Sages/Engineers still force each other out of a city tile, but I could have a Priest and Engineer in the same city... bug?
     

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  7. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Thanks for all the recent feedback. It's going to take me a while to work back through the comments and lua.logs, but I will eventually. For now I'll just hit some random points.

    Conversion processes
    It seems necessary for me to bring these back. If I'm going to do that, I might as well make it more interesting than base Civ5. What I'm thinking of doing is linking it to specific policies. For v10, I'll probably bring back gold, science and culture conversion linked to Mercantilism, Academic Tradition and Crafting. I like linking these to policies rather than techs since it better reflects civ specialization. I can add some interesting new ones, like conversion to food (distributed to all cities), mana, divine favor, unit xp (all nearby units), happiness or even production (distributed to other cities).

    Gold hoarding
    It's always bad strategy in base Civ5 to hoard gold. However, it's fitting in a fantasy setting (and realistic in medieval times) for some empires to do this. So it is something I want to build into the mod as a reasonable (though not necessary) strategy. A huge treasury should be very powerful but not of unlimited power. For example, you can use it to raise a mercenary army (in v10) very quickly, but there are only so many units up for hire at any time. (Based on comments above there may be a base Civ5 limit on gold. I'll have to solve that one way or the other even if it requires a dll modification.)

    On number of naming conditions
    For now, I'll keep the current approach of having a lot of these. It's really the best way to make sure the player doesn't get beat to a name too often (or has something similar to pursue if they are). But it's going to be an ongoing challenge to think of memorable unique traits. This can evolve over time though so it should improve as the mod develops.

    Knowledge Maintenance
    There are certainly mod-specific strategies you have to learn if you want to push for a large number of techs. If you get the right techs and policies, and you build the right infrastructure in big cities, and write some Tomes, then you should be able to push beyond 20 techs in a game. With no research focus you will taper out at about 10 techs. Keep in mind that I'm trying to make both of these viable approaches. Keeping tech progress going late in the game is intended to be extremely difficult, and there are some serious opportunity costs to consider. You need to do some careful planning to achieve very high tech levels. But then, you need to do some careful planning if you want to play an illiterate civ too. Here is how it should work depending on your civ's research focus and on city specialization:
    • High civ focus and core city. The idea is that tech progress never quite winds down, though it may become excruciatingly slow. There should always be one more tech, one more policy, one more building, or one more GP action, that gives you a little +% research (civ-wide or just in your biggest city or in a particular tech branch) to offset KM and let you progress a little. You have to look around to find these things: Tomes (affecting specific tech branches), Observatories, etc. More will be added (probably linked to Sage activity).
    • Medium civ focus and/or medium city. A civ with medium focus or a particular non-research focused city is going to approach 0% research eventually. Should you sell your Libraries? Probably not, since they still give +1 culture. The fact that you still have scribe slots is a problem that I need to deal with in some way. I could mod these so they give +3s1c rather than +4s. (I like mixed yields in general. I wonder if Trader specialists should give +1f3g?) Or I could make the scribe slots go away in cities producing no research (regardless of buildings). Any thoughts on this?
    • Low civ focus or peripheral city. An illiterate civ (without Writing) never builds Libraries. Keep in mind that you still get 1 research point per pop, and this is going to be all you need to approach 10 techs (before KM finally shuts you down at -100%). That's enough for you to have some very tough units. Similarly, a high tech focused civ looking at one of their peripheral cities (say a small outpost city holding a strategic point) should not be thinking about libraries. This civ will eventually reach KM levels of -120% and worse. They continue to progress by offsetting that with +% modifiers, but only their core cities (with Universities, Academies, etc) are going to be at some positive level. Peripheral cities won't contribute anything to research later in the game and should not build any research infrastructure (presumably you built these cities for some other reason).
    That's my objective anyway. You can let me know how well the mod approaches what I said above.

    Starting plot balance
    Very much needed. I've only done a small adjustment to make sure you have at least 1 food resource. And also a bit of forest, jungle clearing for Man. But until I give this some serious attention, there is always Restart.

    Not really a bug so much as side effects of a monumental coding kludge. I wrote a lot of Lua code to work around the 1upt limit and other restrictions for civilian units. It's messy but it works (amazingly) to do what it needs to do, which is allow you to have many GPs in a city or to get them into foreign cities. There is nothing specific about one kind of GP vs another ... more likely you are running into some other peculiarity perhaps related to the actions the GPs were performing. The real solution to this is for me (or someone who wants to help) to code this in the dll properly. Since I wrote this code before the dll was released and it works (well enough) I haven't gotten to that yet.
     
  8. 400cats

    400cats Chieftain

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    In terms of civ naming conditions, there are a decent amount of currently existing civ names listed in the Manual that are pretty unique. They don't overhaul the entire game, but they provide bonuses that give the player a couple of different strategies and change up how they approach the game. Here's some that I really like:

    As you said, the fallback of giving extra yields for certain improvements/resources as the only bonus for a civ name is a bit boring and unmemorable. There's a lot of these civ names, so that'll take a lot of brainstorming. A good starting point, however, is to take the civ's naming trigger (i.e. technology, policy, etc), look at the bonuses it normally grants, and expand upon those. For example, take the Cruithni:
    Useful, but not very exciting! Let's look at the Tracking technology for ideas: you get the Trackers unit in the Recon upgrade line, you get the Hunting Lodge building which lets you reap benefits from remote camps, and you get the ability to build camps up to 5 plots from cities. If you're first to Tracking and you get the Cruithni name, you could receive a unique bonus that goes along with one of these new abilities. For example:
    And I'm sure there's a million more bizarre bonuses you could pull out of tracking. Obviously, making a bonus that is both balanced/useful and interesting/exciting can be difficult, but I think it can be done for all 50 existing names, or at least most of them.
     
  9. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Makes sense to play off the new mechanics for these. Ys already modifies knowledge maintenance and Hippus will tie into the mercenary system. Certainly Cruithni should do something with the camp system (I like the stealing idea, but simple range expansion would be less aggravating for human player). Daggoo could extend range for Whales and Mayd for other sea resources. There are other mechanics to tie into like morale. UUs and UBs are always a possibility too. Maybe 50 unique and memorable is possible, but it will take some time...


    In other fantastic modding news...

    Spoiler :

    Thanks to Deliverator for that. So the Heldeofol will return to the game, at least when we have a full line-up of baddies. Before that, expect to see some on the map in place of barbs. Eventually there will be ogre encampments, orc encampments, etc., in addition to human barbarians (probably those will mostly be in the tundra regions).
     
  10. Nutty

    Nutty Deity

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    Fortuitously enough, you've now got a bit of a head start to customize stacking rules:


     
  11. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Thanks Nutty for the tip. Gedemon also has some specific dll modification related to stacking. Problem is, I need some other specific things, like the ability to coexist with foreign units and enter foreign cities, and real invisibility (not the can-see-from-adjacent-plot one we have). It's all very doable in dll. But doubtful whoward69 or Gedemon will do it for me. (Though Gedemon's GitHub link would be a good starting point for anyone trying to code what we need for Éa.)
     
  12. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    just a stupid idea : maybe libraries could give -1% tech maintenance... (plus the sage slot and maybe culture, but instead of +science.. the +science can come from assigning a specialist to the sage slot) so you will not sell the libraries (indeed, there is always an interest to keep libraries and schools even if far-aways cities...).
    Libraries are not really about improving creativity.. but about diffusing and keeping trace of knowledge.

    it's becoming a way to convert KM from science effort to a gold effort.
    Further, it'll allow some wide-spread empire to get 1-more-tech by building libraries in 10 new cities...

    or maybe universities could give -2%tech maintenance, +2% (or5%) gold expenses for the empire

    .. I have a lot of ideas that are as stupid.. (or clever but complicated.. I don't know the best way to describe them) but that would need to rebalance every-thing.

    (but then Ys should get a bit something more: like-2% per/tech..... and every tech could increase KM by 11 or 12 instead of 10 ... just to keep same balance, but get libraries to give an effect.. but then illiterate civs would be limited to 8 techs instead of 10.. it's hard to balance things out...)

    I thought of giving sage specialists a -1%tech maintenance... but that could become HUGE... and thus you'll need to rebalance everything.. so I'm just mentionning it and not proposing it;
     
  13. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    The way I do it for buildings is to give them a simple +x% research bonus. That directly counters KM in the city (all these +/- % modifiers including KM are just added up). It makes sense for libraries to have this so I'll probably add +5%. Academies should have this too (oversight on my part).

    It doesn't change the core/peripheral analysis above. Your core cities will have +25% from University (w/ Academic Tradition) and let's say the Library gives +5%. But say you have 22 techs and you have Metaphysics and Rationalism (not Ys and no Tomes for simplicity). That puts you at 22 x (10% - 4%) - 15% = 117% KM on a civ-wide basis (the -4% part from Writing, Philosophy, Logic, Metaphysics; the -15% part from Scholasticism, Academic Tradition, Rationalism). Your core city has a total modifier -87% (buildings - KM) so is still putting out some research. Your peripheral city is putting out no research whether it has a library or not (-112% or -117% are both just 0). Of course, that peripheral city was putting out a little research back when you had 15 techs (and maybe it will again for a short time if you write a Tome), but you can see that the difference between core and peripheral cities becomes greater as KM goes up.

    This is why a research-focused civ needs to focus on research buildings in core big cities and KM reducing techs/policies/items, while an illiterate civ just needs population anywhere as fast as possible for the simple 1s/pop yield (to get the techs they need as fast as possible). Everyone else is somewhere between these two.
     
  14. Lplate

    Lplate Esus (Allegedly)

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    With the way a gold focus civ can get a runaway treasury, it is possible to instantly buy every Knowledge (and Cultural) building in peripheral cities later in the game if taking that approach.

    Observatories can be built in cities, even if there is no adjacent mountain. Is that intentional?

    ---

    Could an inflation effect be linked into the amount in treasuries to avoid the overflow issues? If people know (think) that their government is loaded, they want more money for doing the same job they've always done and builders will want more money to build (instantly). This is probably counter to your plan to have a large treasury as a viable strategy for a civ. It would end up punishing the savers.
    If you linked a global inflation factor for instantly buying buildings and units to the total gold in all treasuries, then it would mean that civs would need to train/build what they want themselves and could not rely on instantly buying a defensive force when a war starts (in games where one civ is running the gold focus strategy, unless they are that civ).

    If you have the cash, what is the incentive to hire a mercenary instead of buying the unit?
     
  15. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    random and quick thought: a hoard of gold should attract the interest of a dragon ;)
     
  16. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Oh my! Is Mamonas really 5% on treasury? Should be 0.5%. (I'll have to reexamine National Treasury too.)

    Yeah. I'll have to think about limits on rush buying (units and buildings). I want it to be possible. But not too common. I wish there was a way to have it scale up with usage (like plot buying) but I'm not sure how easy that is to code.

    I'll fix that.

    Price and experience. I don't know the exact numbers. But at a guess a Medium Infantry is 500g to rush, but 200g+3gpt to hire. Of course, that extra gpt is something to consider, but if you are making 1% on your treasury than the above is already a deal (even long term). And the gpt stops if the unit dies or is dismissed, so it is a better way to quickly raise an army for a limited time. Also, you get the mercenary with whatever levels and promotions it happens to have (though that affects price).

    And other interested parties (oh wait, that's phase 4 stuff...).
     
  17. hix

    hix Warlord

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    Love the mod, you have done excellent work with the systems. Looking forward to operable victory conditions.

    CTD, lua log included.
     
  18. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    Compress the file before uploading. You can upload a file with .zip, .7z or .rar endings (but not .log endings and these files are quite large anyway).
     
  19. Lyrrix

    Lyrrix Chieftain

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    Another Lua error... Illegal Warrior this time.
     

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  20. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    @Lyrrix, you need to enable logging so the game engine will print something to that file (otherwise it's just an empty file). [Edit: or perhaps you did that but started Civ5 again before grabbing the file. It gets blanked out sometime during game init.]

    Could someone post a gamesave from shortly before one of these "Illegal GP" errors?
     

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