“Nobody finishes games of Civ!"

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by historix69, May 18, 2017.

  1. blackcatatonic

    blackcatatonic Queen of Meme

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    I have to say, I was nodding as I read that quoted paragraph, as I recognise myself in what he says. I love the exploration and set-up portions of the game but often lose interest by the final third. I play primarily as a builder: I don't really enjoy winning, except for those rare snatched-from-the-jaws-of-defeat moments. If you play primarily to build up a successful empire, once you've done that, you feel as though you've already 'won'. In Civ 5 I finished probably no more than a quarter of the total games I started. In Civ 6 so far, it's actually a lot less, because somehow the late game in this iteration is even less interesting than in 5.

    I did, however, also think that such a mindset is probably not typical among people who post here - but I can well believe that the majority of Civ players have an approach a bit more like mine.
     
  2. steveg700

    steveg700 Deity

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    "At the Gates" is, I believe, the source of the jape.
     
  3. Biz_

    Biz_ Prince

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    he shipped civ5 without an AI
     
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  4. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    I'll finish 10% of my games just so I know a rough game turn ending for how good a strat is.
    Beyond that it is dull. They need a change in dynamic half way through when countries get more complex.
    How is another question. Perhaps around politics and intrigue?
     
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  5. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    Diplomacy and politics. That is the way to do it.


    World Congress is coming.
     
  6. Aslevuli

    Aslevuli Chieftain

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    If you guys are interested in playing multiplayer games to the bitter end we have a super active no-quit Discord group you're all welcome to join! :) discord.gg/sbwZcjC is the link.
     
  7. Sherlock

    Sherlock Just one more turn...

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    I finish most games, but I absolutely enjoy the first half of the game more than the last half.

    A LOT MORE.
     
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  8. CoolLizy

    CoolLizy King

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    If I'm in a position to win, I'll finish the game, but man are those last 50 turns or so a real pain while you wait to actually cross the finish line. Especially in Civ6 where the AI's turns can take a minute or longer while you sit and twiddle your thumbs.

    The big problem historically with the Civilization series (no pun intended), and one of the big reasons that the first 100-150 turns are so fun, is because that's really what decides the game. In most cases, your status as winner or loser is decided entirely by those first 100-150 turns. If you slip up too much, even on lower difficulties--or are just plain unlucky--it's over.

    Spawn next to a tundra or in the desert? Barb village pop up on turn 5 with a scout on your border after your warrior is already off exploring? Misplace a worker due to wonky path-finding? Get a settler captured? Heaven forbid, lose one of your first cities? Might as well start over, you're almost never coming back.

    And even in the later ages, you're screwed if there's a run-away civ that's getting too powerful on another continent. The game gives you so little tools to deal with rivals who aren't on your immediate border. Mounting a distant invasion is usually your one and only option, but it's painfully tedious, and your army is often outdated by the time you get them to the other side of the world and into position. (Which is rarely a problem versus the AI's usual blanket of atomic age archers alone, true, but when combined with beefed up cities and unfavorable terrain, it can vary from difficult to outright impossible depending on how far behind you've fallen.)

    The snowball effect in this game is so ridiculously large that's there is rarely anything you can do to make it up after the first few eras of the game. There really needs to be some sort of "wind resistance" for the leaders in the front of the pack, where the civs biting at your heels can get in your slipstream and feed off your success, pushing ahead if they play their cards right. The way it is right now, everyone is in their own little bubble. There's no dissipation of trade or technology.

    It would also be nice if the game wasn't a complete boolean for the win/lose state. Getting to the end and managing to eke out a second or third place finish at higher difficulties should be fun and rewarding, instead of an instant "ha, ha, you lose." No, you don't want it to be as good as first place, but if second place is the same as dead last, why bother going on for another six to eight hours or more of gameplay once it's clear way back in turn 50 that you're never going to make it.
     
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  9. Uberfrog

    Uberfrog Deity

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    I'd like to chime in an addendum to my post, which mentioned an engaging endgame in Civ V.

    As of last night, I had an engaging end game in Civ VI! Kongo was runaway, and through some lucky use of Spies who then go the right promotions, I was able to fully sabotage their space program in every city. I went from not even having a satellite up when they were on the first Mars mission, to snatching the Science Victory from under them. Pedro even made things more exciting by declaring a war on me towards the end too.

    So it can happen. The problem in general still stands, however. I suppose a game is more likely to be enjoyable at the end if you're not clearly going to win (but still have a chance).
     
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  10. darkace77450

    darkace77450 Emperor

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    I suspect the late game suffers so much because the developers rely on simulated games and stat charts more than actual player experience. Because Civ games run so long they have less time to actually play start to finish themselves, so they run lots of simulated games to tell them what the last game experience is like.
     
  11. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    That's what playtesters are for, I certainly would not be happy paying a developer to play the game. Also asking someone who wrote the code to play the code is loss likely to find exploits.
     
  12. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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    Playtesters should somehow represent your audience : casual gamers, hardcore gamers, fast players (quick speed on duel maps), standard players, multiplayer online gamers, huge map marathon players ...
     
  13. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    I have finished my Germany game I mentioned in other threads (science V), but not my England one. One thing that does keep me going often is modern warfare is generally more interesting than ancient warfare. It's just too bad the AI doesn't utilize it more. I sometimes build carriers and use those even if I don't really "need" to. Having served on an aircraft carrier, I am partial to those units.

    I feel like the first expansion will offer many more atomic and information age things to do. But they have to fix the production problem for that to work. There simply aren't enough free hammers currently to build anything else really.

    Turn time is an issue for me as well, especially as the map mod I'm playing is about a large map size which slows down a bit by the halfway point. By contrast I finished 100% of Civ4 games which never really slowed down for me.
     
  14. DJ_Tanner

    DJ_Tanner Emperor

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    At the Gates is four years behind schedule with no end in sight. The project Stardock brought him on for was never completed. The only thing he has actually finished was CiV vanilla, which almost universally touted as the least polished/finished in series history.
     
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  15. DeutschDachs

    DeutschDachs Emperor

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    That will make meeting all the Civs feel more meaningful but to be honest the World Congress in expansions of Civ IV and V never really excited me or helped me to finish games more regularly.
     
  16. Kougar7

    Kougar7 Warlord

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    Actually I find his analysis to be spot on, though the causes may differ. I don't have a single friend that finishes multiplayer Civ VI games, at first they just don't want to restart games because they're too far behind. But now they don't even play VI anymore. General multiplayer games aren't any better, this game has been a disaster as far as finding multiplayer games goes.
     
  17. Balkans

    Balkans Warlord

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    Although Jon sounds intelligent and actually knows the subjects he's writing about, i don't really take him trustworthy and a man of integrity.
    What he did with "At the gates" is a complete fail. He was pitching something off this world, and he produced a big nothing. I guess his ego was writing code his brain couldn't actually formulate in something "playable", and more important something finished. He's all idea, and no substance. I think, him being an aries, he has too much fire in him, and his brain is kinda brutal machine, it's kinda a beautiful thing, but if he doesn't solve the yawning chasm of what is possible and what is actually DONE he won't produce nothing worthy in his career, but he will always be somewhere close, but not close enough.
    I agree with his analysis, for the most part, i especially remember his perfect in hindsight analysis of what happened with civ 5 development and finished product. He is really great analyzing the past, ironically you can't really do nothing about what is passe, someone would shout - "but you can learn from your mistakes" - he sure learned from his and produced the great game in the finished form of At the gates.
    I really expect from him to get his **** together, take a deep breath in his life, stop burning out and selling fog to his fans and backers and finally start producing great games with the gifts of game development he obviously has.
    My text almost sounds personal, kinda pushed my buttons with the failure of AtG, i don't know why, but i really believed him everything he wrote about At the gates, but it was all BS, so why would anyone take special notice of what he is saying..

    edit: ...and yea, actually a lot of people don't bother to finish a lot of their games, :).
     
  18. Mahatmajon

    Mahatmajon Prince

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    I believe I've finished 1 game -- an Immortal level Science win with Trajan where the AI did nothing the entire game. At some point I'll finish all the victory conditions on small maps, but that's probably about it.

    I have a million halfway games that I've played and am actively trying to finish 2 games now, but it really is hard:
    Immortal/Standard size & speed/+1 Civ /+1 City State. I think I'm Sumeria..? and am 1st in score ~turn 120
    Diety/Small size/Standard speed. I'm Kongo and just got the tech for the specialty district. ~3rd in score ~turn 120

    It's a long way to go for both games...but they're an attempt to prove to myself that I've figured the game out.

    In CIV 4 I think Rifling was the 'okay, am I going to win or not' tech where I'd usually give up. In Civ6 I'm less consistent, but it's often around turn 150 or so. At that point the wonders don't seem worthwhile anymore, I know that I can start conquering if I want but it will take forever, and I'm not particularly good at picking a winning condition and going for it as much as the very early stages 'best move' strategies.

    For me I think the way to improve this would be to make automated workers/trade routes very smart and perhaps come with a ~turn 100 technology. If I could turn off more of the turn-to-turn maintenance when I have an empire instead of a few cities it would help, but I never trust the AI workers.
     
  19. darkace77450

    darkace77450 Emperor

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    Unfortunately I don't see the late game becoming more interesting until Firaxis drastically improves the AI. As is, the threat posed by the AI in the late game isn't anywhere near what it is in the early game. Their tech is usually too far behind to pose a military threat, there is no UN/WC through which they can impose diplomatic sanctions, ideological blocs are a relic of past games, espionage is little more than a minor inconvenience, and the game is usually over before the AI develops or employs the uniquely-late game elements like air units or nuclear weapons.
     
  20. Mr. Shadows

    Mr. Shadows Nomad of the time streams

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    Well, I play with the intention of finishing and I usually do, so clearly he's not talking to me. That's fine, but I have to call shenanigans when it comes to the late game. Sure, the late game is boring in SP because the AI is incredibly predictable. Against a human opponent of comparable skill the late game has a lot to offer. The problem isn't with the game itself, it's due to the limitations of the AI. He's talking as if MP doesn't exist or doesn't matter. That makes absolutely no sense to me.
     
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