“The Feminist”

[Zardnaar]

No one has anything against male sexual energy (and I'd be willing to bet I enjoy it much more than you do), but why do you feel that male sexual energy has to be tied completely to the exploitation and degradation of women? That's not a problem for all men, I know plenty who express their sexuality without objectifying women.

Sure a friendship can become romantic ... but I feel there's a difference between that happening naturally, and making that your universal strategy, no? When you're with your male friends, do you constantly hold out hope one of them is going to become romantically involved with you? If you proposition one of your male friends to become a couple, and he says he's not interested, do you have thoughts that maybe you'll try again later, eventually wearing him down? Do you feel that if you help your male friends with things, and if they then won't date you that means they're horrible people? When you make a new male friend, do you think to yourself "Oooh yay, I sure hope we start dating someday?"

I'm never going to judge people who are into BDSM or anything (heck, I have what some would call really kinky desires) but what he's doing in this story goes well beyond that ... do you feel what he's doing is normal and okay?

How do you think your wife would feel if she was friends with your (male) neighbor, and she finds out he's watching domination pornography (or really any pornography) and specifically seeking out leading actresses who bear a resemblance to her? You don't think this is disturbingly creepy?

I kind of fell into the female friends become girlfriends. Or more likely their friends. Kinda happened organically though, didn't go out if my way to do it.

I was dumb as rocks in other ways though. Screwed it up a bit (so did they sometimes).

Most if the time it was mostly my fault though.

 

[Truthy]

It seems like people want to think if the guy had just been an even better feminist from the beginning, his problems would have been solved. But I think the story says feminism has its limits. Not that it's bad (in fact, I think it's definitely saying feminism is good), but feminism's not the be-all-end-all of actualization, growing up, romance, sexuality, overcoming narcissism, and so on.

 

[Narz]

An unattractive man becoming a feminist to try to ingratiate himself to women is kinda like an unattractive woman taking up an interest in football to try to be more appealing to men. It might work on some small percentage but it's not going to change your overall appeal. It might even make it worse, as most male feminists seem to view their masculinity as some disease they need to cleanse themselves of, and a healthy red-blooded heterosexual woman is going to be strongly attracted to masculinity. Acting like her girlfriend is an odd mating strategy.

 

[Zardnaar]

Just don't pretend you're something you're not. Like go to church to hook up with that cute Christian chick or whatever.

No one likes being used or lied to. I'm very blunt IRL women seem to like it. Shrugs.

 

[Rashiminos]

View your female friends like your male friends: as equals and partners,

I was scrolling through this thread as some background reading when I stumbled on this hilariously bad piece of advice.

No, you cannot treat female friends as you would male friends. What would qualify as friendly banter and fun between two guys becomes harassment and "toxic masculinity" the moment a women thinks she can handle it. You see plenty of activism on online (eg Twitter) that futilely tries to make male social activity safe for feminist sentiments. Shockingly it doesn't work, and it leads to male alienation to boot.

An unattractive man becoming a feminist to try to ingratiate himself to women is kinda like an unattractive woman taking up an interest in football to try to be more appealing to men. It might work on some small percentage but it's not going to change your overall appeal. It might even make it worse, as most male feminists seem to view their masculinity as some disease they need to cleanse themselves of, and a healthy red-blooded heterosexual woman is going to be strongly attracted to masculinity. Acting like her girlfriend is an odd mating strategy.

Survivorship bias.

Men proclaiming their feminist bona fides tend to be the ones not comfortably situated in a (number of) relationship(s).

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Desire is normal. Taboo desire is normal, ironically enough. What we do with it matters.

You can't possibly know that, sexual desire has led to people doing some pretty objectively bad stuff; rape, kidnap, violence and even death.

There's 5 rules when it comes to sexuality and fetishism to adhere to if you want to be a good person:

1. Don't hurt others (unless specifically asked for)

2. Don't hurt yourself .

3. Don't hurt animals.

4. Don't hurt children .

5. Respect and get consent.

 

[Zardnaar]

You can't possibly know that, sexual desire has led to people doing some pretty objectively bad stuff; rape, kidnap, violence and even death.

There's 5 rules when it comes to sexuality and fetishism to adhere to if you want to be a good person:

1. Don't hurt others (unless specifically asked for)

2. Don't hurt yourself .

3. Don't hurt animals.

4. Don't hurt children .

5. Respect and get consent.

Nothing you said contradicts that post.

" It's what we do with it that matters".

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Remember that contradiction and tension breed attraction. Women tend to want men for them being men. Not because they are nice. However, you can still be nice. But that is not what breeds attraction, though it may help to not be a total dick. Things aren't fair. They are natural. And you gonna need to be the strong one. If you start from a position of utter weakness, you are a good girlfriend, but rarely more. That is just that sexual psyche, IMO.

 

[MaryKB]

I was scrolling through this thread as some background reading when I stumbled on this hilariously bad piece of advice.

No, you cannot treat female friends as you would male friends. What would qualify as friendly banter and fun between two guys becomes harassment and "toxic masculinity" the moment a women thinks she can handle it. You see plenty of activism on online (eg Twitter) that futilely tries to make male social activity safe for feminist sentiments. Shockingly it doesn't work, and it leads to male alienation to boot.

I didn't say treat us the same, I said view us the same.

As in friends you want for our company, and to share experiences and fun with. Not someone you're hoping to have sex with one day.

 

[Rashiminos]

I didn't say treat us the same, I said view us the same.

The former precludes the latter. Treating female friends differently entails viewing them differently. This also applies to what you say.

As for the last part, there's no reason to explicitly deny that consideration either, even if the guy doesn't want to.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I think it's possible to view someone as an equal and respect them, whilst at the same time as someone you might quite like to screw. Not only possible, but I'd guess actually rather common when it comes to male-female friendships.

 

[MaryKB]

You obviously treat every person differently, based on her or his needs. I don't mean you view every person as a carbon copy clone of each other.

But I'm talking about equal and peer respect. You need to see us as people and for our other qualities, not just our sex.

When you're in an obviously non-romantic relationship with a woman, such as friends, coworkers, teammates, etc, you need to just maybe think "This is not someone I'm ever going to be involved with" and then just never think of her that way again. Focus on her personality and your camaraderie, like you would if she were a man. If you can't do that, you're never going to really view her as an equal.

When it's really bad, is when you express you have a desire for a romantic relationship, and she tells you she doesn't feel the same way, and you still hope she's going to change her mind and think of her that way. Yuck.

 

[Farm Boy]

Which would you guess happens more readily and first? Sexual attraction or respect and friendship?

Let me be absolutely clear on something. That a man is attracted to a woman does not demean her in his eyes, outside of the warping of sexual desire - as we've been discussing*. That's the point. The desire is there, and it is almost certainly there first. It's not going to go away. No, you should not be a pest or overly aggressive**. Being a pest and overly aggressive are clearly bad interactions and may by a symptom of not respecting women as equals that coexists with desire. That's not the same thing as desire.

Your take on friendships is incomplete. A great deal of romantic relationships grow out of non-romantic ones, particularly as people age. It's not abnormal to like the people you are around. "Never think of her that way again." Probably not possible. The thoughts are there regardless.

*If one holds a warped view of the morality of having male desire. If it is negative, if it is bigoted and abusive that it's there, much less acted upon, then we have a big problem when we then must inevitably get around to the truth that women very frequently very much appreciate male energy as you put it. If a guy has pathologized his desire, and he's pathologized other men's desires, then where does that land women who get off on the "pathology?" It's not pretty. That's a problem and it's the one you don't like.

**Yes, in a great number of situations, no advances at all are appropriate. Probably the great majority of situations.

 

[MaryKB]

Yes, that desire is a problem, because it prevents him from fully recognizing her as an equal. You won't convince me that if I'm "friends" or colleagues with a man who has a sexual interest in me, that he's going to give me the same level of respect that he does his male friends, because I can absolutely tell you from lived experience that he doesn't and he won't.

You need to make that possible. Remember, your gender has a lot of work to do to fix itself, and you won't get there by making excuses.

Yes, I am saying you need to completely change the way you think about people.

 

[bernie14]

You can't possibly know that, sexual desire has led to people doing some pretty objectively bad stuff; rape, kidnap, violence and even death.

There's 5 rules when it comes to sexuality and fetishism to adhere to if you want to be a good person:

1. Don't hurt others (unless specifically asked for)

2. Don't hurt yourself .

3. Don't hurt animals.

4. Don't hurt children .

5. Respect and get consent.

Do your rules apply only to sex, or extend to say, one's property?

 

[Farm Boy]

Ok. So the argument is that desire is innately demeaning. That it cannot be held for an equal without a so bespoke relationship.

If the desire is demeaning, and women do obviously and demonstrably want that desire very frequently in society, then women obviously and demonstrably want to be demeaned.

No. Absolutely not.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Yes, that desire is a problem, because it prevents him from fully recognizing her as an equal. You won't convince me that if I'm "friends" or colleagues with a man who has a sexual interest in me, that he's going to give me the same level of respect that he does his male friends, because I can absolutely tell you from lived experience that he doesn't and he won't.

Why does having a sexual interest in someone mean you don't recognise them as an equal? If that were true that wouldn't bode well for relationships and marriages in general would it?

And I mean... I really don't want to open this can of worms, but half the male friends you have on here openly talk to you in a flirty/sexual way on a regular basis, if they're not complimenting your clothes/makeup/eyes/general appearance. You don't exactly seem to discourage this. Nothing wrong with that of course, but you don't seriously think that it's all 100% banter with asexual monks whose minds never really go there do you? But does that make them bad people who don't respect you? I don't think so.

 

[MaryKB]

I never said having a sexual interest is a problem, that's your own thought and not mine.

What I say is that having a sexual interest in someone you're in a non-sexual relationship with is harmful to the woman and to your relationship with her. It affects how you think about her, and ultimately how you respect her.

Like imagine if you're a carnivore and animals could talk. Say you're "friends" with a type of animal you eat. If you think of how you one day might want to eat your friend, do you really think you could view them as an equal to yourself? You're fooling yourself.

And please don't say it's because that's what women want, I can assure you that's a lie. That's what you want.

@Manfred Belheim this whole site is basically just banter, and I know we're just joking with each other. I don't believe any of the men I talk to here hold out any real hope that I'd ever have sex with them, we're just having fun. And you can compliment someone without thinking it's going to lead to sex: I very often tell my girlfriends how much I love their new hair, or clothes, etc. And my friends do the same for me, I got quite a lot of compliments last weekend on my new nails for example. I often talk to men I know about how amazing I think they look, maybe with a new suit or after losing some weight, and so on (and I mean it honestly)

I haven't had a lot of male friends IRL. I have my one coworker who I've known for almost ten years, but while we talk and he helps me with things, I'm sure he doesn't have a sexual interest. I've never gotten that vibe from him, and at my company he's one of the few guys who really treats me with full respect for my abilities. I've also known guys who got angry with me when I wasn't sexually interested in them, and I find it tends to get worse the longer you've been "friends" with one of these guys.

I don't believe every man is unable to control himself like Farm Boy thinks, I believe many men really do respect women and don't view all of us as hopeful/potential mates.

Think of this: if your boss is a woman, would you be hoping she'd call you into her office to have sex with her? Now things get really bad for women when the man has more power (see: Harvey Weinstein, etc)

 

[Farm Boy]

I do not shuck and devour my wife when I clearly desire her. I'm going to guess that maybe, just maybe, I have a better bead on what she wants out of this type of "eating her" then you do.

"Can't control themselves" my ass!

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Remember, your gender has a lot of work to do to fix itself, and you won't get there by making excuses.

I just got wondering. Is there actually anything the female gender needs to do to "fix itself"?
You know I get your point and kinda agree with it. I really do. But I also think you need to view your POV more as an ideal than what actually literally needs to happen. If you think men need to constantly practice mental hygiene to live up to your ideal, you know that this probably won't work out. Things are always going to be murky between the sexes, you need to allow for that, and for men to also be not always perfectly proper or comfortable in the expressions of their desires. You have no right to never feel uncomfortable. Life needs some martian of error to unfold. You should be careful to try to regulate eros. But you have a right to be taking serious as a professional. Those things will collide, I see that. That conflict will never be entirely solved. We need to manage it. Otherwise things get detached, narrow-minded,artificial, too ideological.

Sometimes tight leash will reduce your control.