[NFP] [1.0.12.9(564030)]At war w CS; units then kicked out of its borders upon DoW on Suzerain

[SirWill90]

OK this one's a new one for me. I have always hated how your troops can get kicked out of a CS's borders by a new Suzerain taking over that CS, but...

I am at war with Chinguetti, whose Suzerain is Hammurabi. He pops up and tells me to move my troops away from his border or declare war. I choose war.

Instantly all my troops which were within Chinguetti's borders are kicked out. Huh?

Save file is the turn before this happens.

 

[Pfeffersack]

Reminds me the issue with getting booted out when liberating a CS - neither being the suzerain afterwards nor running gunboat diplomacy saves you here:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-afterwards-running-gunboat-diplomacy.660470/

 

[Zegangani]

I had the same Issue in my last game, but with a major Civ. I was preparing for war against a Civ (building the Units and move them to the Borders of that Civ..), made an open Borders Deal so that I can move my Units in its Territory, placed those in strategic positions (so I can pillage before I attack) in its most productive Cities and started a Surprise War. But all my Units in that Civ's Territory got kicked out of that and all my strategizing went for nothing.

If that happens with any other declaration of War Type I would be ok with that, but it's a SURPRISE War, not a formal and fair One. The Units shouldn't get removed from the Territory of a Civ that you declare a Surprise War on.

I lost all my Units, got annoyed by that, and didn't finish the Game (because I only had Science and Domonation Victory active, on Immortal, and conquering that Civ was the only solution to still have a chance to win the Game).

 

[Pfeffersack]

I had the same Issue in my last game, but with a major Civ. I was preparing for war against a Civ (building the Units and move them to the Borders of that Civ..), made an open Borders Deal so that I can move my Units in its Territory, placed those in strategic positions (so I can pillage before I attack) in its most productive Cities and started a Surprise War. But all my Units in that Civ's Territory got kicked out of that and all my strategizing went for nothing.

If that happens with any other declaration of War Type I would be ok with that, but it's a SURPRISE War, not a formal and fair One. The Units shouldn't get removed from the Territory of a Civ that you declare a Surprise War on.

I lost all my Units, got annoyed by that, and didn't finish the Game (because I only had Science and Domonation Victory active, on Immortal, and conquering that Civ was the only solution to still have a chance to win the Game).

While I see your logic and understand your frustration about this, I'm pretty sure that this is no bug, but intended design. IIRC, Civ3 was the last game where this strategy was possible - after that unit ejection/teleportation was introduced, probably because the open border trick was a human-only thing (as the AI wasn't programmed to used and the only other alternative would have been the AI using it, too...which likely would frustate other players) and even the reputation hit you suffered in Civ3 no real issue. I know a "Surprise War" cries logically for this, but the problem is that this is so overly powerful, the penalty in comparison tiny (increased grievances) and the scope of a single game (as the AI has no memory for the next game) to short simulate the real consequnces of this (broken trust).

 

[Zegangani]

While I see your logic and understand your frustration about this, I'm pretty sure that this is no bug, but intended design. IIRC, Civ3 was the last game where this strategy was possible - after that unit ejection/teleportation was introduced, probably because the open border trick was a human-only thing (as the AI wasn't programmed to used and the only other alternative would have been the AI using it, too...which likely would frustate other players) and even the reputation hit you suffered in Civ3 no real issue. I know a "Surprise War" cries logically for this, but the problem is that this is so overly powerful, the penalty in comparison tiny (increased grievances) and the scope of a single game (as the AI has no memory for the next game) to short simulate the real consequnces of this (broken trust).

That makes sense. Good to know that!
I didn't know that about the earlier Games, so thanks for letting me know!

And, Yes, a Surprise war doesn't have major drawbacks/issues, though this could work as a unique Civ/Leader Ability, perhaps for Cyrus, or just available in Deity Games. But in the end, it's just one War Strategy among many, so not a big deal.