[Vote] (1-07) Proposal: Artistry OVERHAUL

[Recursive]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" if you'd be okay if this proposal was implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if this proposal wasn't implemented. You can vote for both options.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 1, Proposal 7
Proposer: @pineappledan
Sponsor(s): @pineappledan, @Recursive
Previous Discussion Thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/13-proposal-artistry-overhaul.679037/

Proposal Details
Current Artistry: link to wiki

Problems:

• Artistry and Tradition are stacked up, and have a few overlapping bonuses that make Tradition/Artistry a bit Too optimal for tall, safe, GP focused play
• W.R.T. Artistry, it has 2 GP-related bonuses that contribute a lot to this overlap. Both of these bonuses are shared with at least 2 other policies, so there is also unnecessary repetition of mechanics
• Outside of CV, which is overtuned in general, Artistry is lacklustre and doesn't offer much outside sharpening Tradition's tall playstyle. Giving Artistry less overt GP bonuses and more wide bonuses would make it feel viable for other playthroughs
• In particular, Artistry has a on Great Person expend bonus. There are too many of these GP expend bonuses to be interesting. They get repetitive and they can make GP births into a torrent of instant yields, which is both making GP-focused games too optimal, and too samey.
• Artistry has 2 policies in particular which are just awful:
  • Refinement (+1 from all Guilds, and for every 3 in a City) is boring, 1-note, and is nothing but a tall-centric happiness bonus, which itself is an oxymoron. There is nothing wrong with these bonuses per se, but both of them and nothing else on a policy makes Refinement possibly the least useful policy in the entire game. This is also Artistry's only happiness policy, and none of it scales with wide.
  • Humanism ( Art gains +2, Artifacts +2, Music +4, Literature +3. +1 to Specialists). It's just ugly and busy. It's 5 small bonuses piled into 1 policy, making it hard to read and a bit of a pain.

Proposal:
Opener

• +25% GWAM rates in all cities
• +10% in all cities during Golden Ages
• +100% construction rate of all Guilds.

Scaler - unchanged
Finisher - unchanged
Humanism

• +3 Golden Age Points from Great Works of Writing
• +1 Happiness from all Guilds
• Amount of Golden Age Points needed to trigger a Golden Age reduced by 25%

Refinement

• +2Culture from Great Works of Art
• +1 Culture from Specialists
• 1 Specialist in all cities does not produce Urbanization

Heritage

• +4 Gold from Great Works of Music
• +4 Tourism and Golden Age Points from Universities.
• 25% of the from World Wonders, Natural Wonders, and Improvements is added to the Tourism output of the city

National Treasure

• +2 Science from Artifacts
• A Great Person of your choice appears near your Capital.
• Gain 250 Gold when you Construct World or National Wonders, scaling with Era.

Cultural Exchange

• +1 Happiness for every 3 Great Works in a City
• +2 Culture and +2 Production from Amphitheaters and Opera Houses
• The Tourism modifier for Open Borders with other Civilizations is Increased by 10%.

 

[Stalker0]

It might be nice to paste in the original tree, it can hard to guage for people what this is actually changing.

 

[Deljade]

Artistry will always be the tall tree simply because of how tourism works with wide (it doesn't)

 

[pineappledan]

It might be nice to paste in the original tree, it can hard to guage for people what this is actually changing.

There is a link to the relevant wiki page in the OP. Posting the entire artistry tree's current bonuses makes the proposal too wordy.

 

[Stalker0]

There is a link to the relevant wiki page in the OP. Posting the entire artistry tree's current bonuses makes the proposal too wordy.

ah I missed that. I agree that is a reasonable way to post the info.

 

[josh4]

Artistry will always be the tall tree simply because of how tourism works with wide (it doesn't)

No, I fairly often choose it as progress or authority. Artistry is a lot of production and gold and culture, not necessarily tourism.

 

[nekokon]

Interesting, I almost never pick artistry when going wide and not going for CV unless I'm playing a civ with free GW/artifact per city like Egypt. I can't see any benefit doing so.

 

[Zuizgond]

No, I fairly often choose it as progress or authority. Artistry is a lot of production and gold and culture, not necessarily tourism.

A lot pf production?

 

[josh4]

A lot pf production?

hero worship + artistry + some monopolies + some civs abilities like Indonesia/Rome/Persia = lots of golden ages, which also gives lots of border growths so production and gold from tribute

 

[pineappledan]

Artistry already has a lot of good things going for it wide, especially if you play a GA civ. The hope was to try to make it a bit wider, fix some of the ugly policies, and remove some of the repetition, while also adding some more policy mechanics.

 

[Stalker0]

hero worship + artistry + some monopolies + some civs abilities like Indonesia/Rome/Persia = lots of golden ages, which also gives lots of border growths so production and gold from tribute

if border growth is the name of the game, then fealty would serve you much better.

 

[josh4]

if border growth is the name of the game, then fealty would serve you much better.

it isn't. production, goldean ages are, good flat science is, and faster imperialism/industry/order/autocracy tenets are. fealty has other, short term merits

 

[Slyceth]

Artistry is OP for a peaceful/snowballing civ. I always found culture victory to be cheap and easy considering the requirements of 2 top tier ideology policies is literally a culture requirement, which you literally have as a tourism focused civ.

I propose culture victory have another requirement to make it harder, heck, "own 2 or 3 capitals". That way you can't just sit by but you have to declare war or take advantage of another war and steal away a city at some point, adding more gameplay and conflict.

The easiest wins are ones where you sit back and only contender for your culture victory has way too high an opinion of you because you voted for their meaningless proposals, accepted their war requests that didn't affect you, and gave them gifts that didn't have any negative effects. At least refuse open borders, geez,,

 

[CppMaster]

I propose culture victory have another requirement to make it harder, heck, "own 2 or 3 capitals".

Hard no to that. It's better to just nerf tourism sources.

 

[Slyceth]

Hard no to that. It's better to just nerf tourism sources.

Elaborate please

 

[CppMaster]

I prefer CV to not step on toes of dominion victory. CV already requires you to be influential will all the civs, have 2 3-tier tenets and build a wonder. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that. If it's too easy then lets just adjust tourism sources. It also doesn't make any sense. Small civs probably won't matter anyway, because you will be influenced with them when you try to influence bigger empires. What would be the point of conquering their capitals?

 

[Slyceth]

I prefer CV to not step on toes of dominion victory. CV already requires you to be influential will all the civs, have 2 3-tier tenets and build a wonder. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that. If it's too easy then lets just adjust tourism sources. It also doesn't make any sense. Small civs probably won't matter anyway, because you will be influenced with them when you try to influence bigger empires. What would be the point of conquering their capitals?

The problem is how easy it is to play 100% defensive and have everyone be friendly with you. Sure it depends on the map and not having a neighbor but in 25% of map generations you're alone on a big island and if you claim the edges fast enough you can guarantee yourself a peaceful game, following the top of the tech tree and snatching every world wonder and archaeology site and you already have the production, because you've snowballed, for the wonder.

Your only weakness is military might, considering the wonder is completely useless since the AI can't do anything about it, they can't suddenly not be influential while the wonder is being built

 

[CppMaster]

Sure it depends on the map and not having a neighbor but in 25% of map generations you're alone on a big island

Then that's an issue with your map choice. With standard continents you are almost always with 3 different civs on the continent.

Your only weakness is military might, considering the wonder is completely useless since the AI can't do anything about it, they can't suddenly not be influential while the wonder is being built

The wonder gives other civs more time to react. They could win before you build it, or could try to invade you, so you're either forced to build military instead or they conquer your capital. I actually had that situation in one of my recent games.

 

[Slyceth]

Then that's an issue with your map choice. With standard continents you are almost always with 3 different civs on the continent.

The wonder gives other civs more time to react. They could win before you build it, or could try to invade you, so you're either forced to build military instead or they conquer your capital. I actually had that situation in one of my recent games.

I can't imagine the 8 turns it takes for the wonder to build is enough for the ai to take your capital.

I just did 2 test games and in both cases the ai does land their units next to my capital but just kind of idles around doing at most 3% damage to the capital but they couldn't take it before the wonder was done.

In the second test I even manually declared war on everyone before I started the wonder, and made my army idle. A glitch happened that reset my wonder progress while it was halfway done but after 18 turns the city was still standing and the wonder was done. I only lost 2 cities and they liberated them to a defeated civ (Japan) which means they were kicked out of the land. Dumb ai.

 

[CppMaster]

I can't imagine the 8 turns it takes for the wonder to build is enough for the ai to take your capital.

For me sometimes it's about 20 turns. And yeah, even if AI won't conquer your capital, they just have these additional 20 turns to win, so it's not useless.