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1/11 - Founder Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jan 21, 2020.

  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Here is where I think current founder beliefs are at as of 1/11 version. I'm going with a normal A,C, F rating system.

    A: very good, I choose this one a lot.
    A- I still take this one a good bit, but I think its slightly weaker than the As.
    C: decent, I choose this one on occasion, a bit weaker than A beliefs.
    F: I rarely take this one.

    Apostolic Tradition - A-
    Ceremonial Burial - C
    Council of Elders - A
    Divine Inheritance - A-
    Hero Worship - C
    Holy Law - C (A with certain culture heavy civs)
    Theocratic Rule - A
    Way of the Pilgrim - F
    Way of Transcendence - C
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2020
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  2. Voremonger

    Voremonger Chieftain

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    Your ratings do not line up with the rating descriptions ;^).

    Anyways, I think that you are rating Hero Worship too highly.
    I think that even when you're playing aggressively it's not very good because
    1. it gives yields only when you conquer Cities and that
    2. the yields it gives are not very good.
    Regarding the first point, I think that if you're conquering enough Cities to get good yields out of Hero Worship you're likely to win the game anyways, so the yields don't matter much.
    Regarding the second point, while the Golden Age Points and the GG/GA Points from Hero Worship are useful, the Faith is not very useful I think.
    This is because Faith becomes considerably less useful once you have already founded a Religion.
    You could use the extra Faith to buy Missionaries and spread your Religion but if you have Orders or Diligence as a Follower Belief that can be counter-productive.
    I think that the current implementation of Hero Worship is only worthwhile if you also take Zealotry in order to get something useful out of the Faith.

    I would suggest the following changes:
    1. Change Hero Worship so that it gives yields when you kill Units.
    2. Move the Faith from conquering Cities to God of War (and cut down on the Faith from killing Units and remove the damage boost for Cities).
    The point of the second change would be to:
    1. Retain the ability to build a religion that spreads through conquest.
    2. Give Faith yields from conquering Cities at a point in time where they're the most useful.
    3. Encourage players that take God of War to actually go to war instead of farming Barbarians.
    4. Reduce the maximum damage Cities can deal (I think it's too high as of right now).
     
  3. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think Council of Elders is a bit too strong. It is probably worth like 3~ wonders and 5 or 6 techs within the first 50 turns after your religion. Usually you want Oracle first to make sure you have enough social policies, and Hagia to enhance your religion for free. It's only weakness is long term it is weak-ish, but you can grab a wonder to more than compensate for that.

    I think Hero Worship ends up giving too many yields in the late game.
     
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  4. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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  5. hokath

    hokath King

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    This one?

    Hero Worship Rework - Yields for GGenerals, a unique trigger
    - Gain :c5faith:Faith, :c5culture:Culture, :c5gold:Gold, and :c5science:Science when a :c5capital:Great General/Admiral is born.
    - Unlocks Great Altar
    +5:c5faith: faith
    +15%:c5production: unit production
    +3:c5faith:Faith to Citadels
    +3:c5gold:Gold to Holy Sites

    I like it a lot.
     
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  6. Randomized

    Randomized Chieftain

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    I think I'd miss the GG/GA points on capture when playing Japan, it's crazy. :crazyeye:

    But yeah this looks good. There are already so many things that give yields on city capture, and flavor wise I think this works better with the name "Hero Worship".
     
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  7. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    Hero worship is the most faith producing Founder belief right now i really don't think it's necessary to change that given how cost of faith sinks gets inflated later in the game.
    Zealotry exists and it will get rolling once you capture the first one or two cities, it has no cool down on purchase, units receive full XP and the only limit is how many units can your empire support; it pretty much negates the need for building land units once you get it to work.


    The :c5production: on holy sites from hero worship is huge in the mid game tho i really don't think this needs to be changed.
    Also the :c5goldenage: and GG/GA points on city capture is not irrelevant at all, a complete rework is not necessary; it does what a warmonger would like to do :capture cities and with the right combination of beliefs/policies it's game winning on it's own.
     
  8. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    Hero Worship's yields aren't irrelevant, but there are tons of effects that proc on city capture... including another belief.
     
  9. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Prince

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    I like Hero Worship as is. It's very hard for a warmonger to keep up in culture in the long run with a runaway civilization. Hero Worship, if the warmonger manages to get it, makes the reward for conquering a city sufficient to change the course of the game. Each of the elements is satisfying and useful at different times. Extra Great Generals and thus citadels and supply can win wars and enable warring without going below the supply cap. Extra faith, at worst, is more great generals and prophets eventually. Golden Age Points enable a Warmonger to have access to golden ages and keep up. It has nice synergies with a number of civilizations.

    Now, is it overpowered? I would say... it has the most potential power. Some games it doesn't do much and it's a struggle to get the conquering going. A warmonger's ideal founder / reformer combo is hero worship and crusader spirit. But getting that combo is tough. The AI picks hero worship plenty.
     
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  10. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    The most notable difference between hero worship and the rest of founder beliefs is the huge discrepancy between the minimum and maximum yields in the best and worst cases and how it scales into late game proportionately; take council of elders or apostalic tradition for example .... your worst performance with either of them would be just spreading your religion to your cities and allied CSs and the best is spreading it to your neighbouring one or two ccivs for reasonable early/mid game yields that roughly caps at 150:c5food:/:c5culture: per missionary that costs 150 :c5faith: for apostalic tradition assuming you adopted fealty .... reasonable yields for classical or medieval era , later with the era advancement and increased cost of missionaries you would be getting the same yield that's barely noticable at this point in fact you would be getting the lower end of the cap given how conversion is much harder as the game progresses.
    On the other hand hero worship is extrelmly variable depending on how aggressive you are with the domination game yet it's consistently scaling with the city size, the yields it provides are relevant till the very end of the game whether the faith to purchase great persons, buildings, units with zealotry or just to get more holy site tiles.
    GG/GA points and golden age points are not irrelevant either, the worst case scenario is just sending admirals for a voyage for extra luxuries and military supply.
     
  11. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So looks like I should make hero worship an A. Any other ones people think I have miscategorized?
     
  12. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I think the gap in quality between apostolic tradition and council of elders is bigger than an A and A-
     
  13. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian Warlord

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    I personally love Way of the Pilgrim and I see the AI consistently pick it first or second.
     
  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    So you think council of Elders is "S tier", or you think Apostolic is a C?
     
  15. cerk

    cerk Chieftain

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    I think Divine Inheritance is better than theocratic rule. DI applies to food, science and production which puts it on the same level as TR's scaling in all cities. This can make a progress capital as powerful as tradition's.

    Only 3 cities can have guilds. They typically have about 80-100 :c5culture: each. That is 30 :c5culture: + capital for hooking up 3 different luxuries. This is comparable to divine inheritance.

    The gold scaling in theocratic rule is effectively wasted if I am running ITRs and there are plenty of reasons to do that. Even late game I run at least 2 ITRs, sending food to capital and divine inheritance helps me with that.
     
  16. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    S and B or B-. Apostolic is useful but fair. You can't really go crazy with it because you need tiles and stuff. Council of Elders and Hero Worship are the S-tiers in my opinion, huge game changing bonuses that make it feel like you were playing on a lower difficulty.
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I think a more useful guide here (since the values are all pretty close) would be a numeric ranking, not alphanumeric.

    G
     
  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I'll sort the beliefs in my opinion of strength:

    Unfair beliefs:
    Council of Elders - S+, 12/10, GG noobs I'm in Renaissance on turn 120 and built 3 wonders along the way. Very good regardless of your strategy.
    Hero Worship - S, 11/10. It is a bit lower than Ceremonial Burial because it is harder to activate and I'm assuming something will be done to make capturing cities harder. But in terms of high rolls, nothing can match this. With the right synergies it's absurd all game long.

    Fair beliefs:
    Divine Inheritance - A, 9/10 really good for someone trying to build wonders and focusing on their capital. Can turn progress into tradition. The production is a really big deal IMO, it is usually worth a wonder each game
    Holy Law - A, 9/10. I value early faith a lot, and you usually take two or three social policies before enhancing. Long term its gives decent yields, you end up reaching your target techs a lot faster with this

    Theocratic Rule -
    B, 8/10. On paper this looks better than Divine, but I don't think it is. Still its a pretty good long term bonus.
    Apostolic Tradition - B, 8/10. This bonus is potentially very high, but its difficult to get value out of the food. In the mid-game, a tech lead has more unfair options than a social policy lead.
    Ceremonial Burial - B-, 7/10. I usually take Divine Inheritance instead, if I'm given the choice. Late game its probably not bad, but it is quite slow.
    Way of Transcendence - B-, 7/10 Oh how the mighty have fallen. It isn't common to get a religion before the classical era. This is pretty good either way though, the faith can help you fast enhance, with good planning you can put the production into wonders, and a few extra pop can really help a capital that had a weak start.
    Way of the Pilgrim - I haven't used this in forever so I can't give it a score. I have my great prophet, I see tourism, but then I remember it's turn 90, not turn 250, and I take another belief. A few players have given it praise though.

    If anyone is familiar with card games like Hearthstone or Magic, you will see players evaluate a card as "fair", therefore not worth using. The issue with several of these beliefs is they are fair, while other beliefs are doing unfair things. Similarly slow but strong effects (like Theocratic Rule, Ceremonial Burial and possibly Way of the Pilgrim) don't really have a role when the short term power spikes are so high.
     
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  19. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Prince

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    I agree witt most of this but just a couple of points i'd like to add.
    Unfair beliefs:
    This could be biased by how often i pick Hero Worship but iI would personally swap Council of Elders and Hero Worship ranking, once you pour enough resources to capture a city or two you are basically unstoppable;Today i have started a new game as Byzantine Progress on a Tobacco monopoly and after two or 3 city captures in classical era i have not built a single unit; just Hero worship feeding zealotry and spamming Great Generals for extra supply and only limited by the free spots around the cities to get Heavy skirmishers and Cataphracts.
    On it's own in a vacuum, Hero worship is not game breaking alone but with things like Zealotry, To the glory of god, Holy Lands it's just absurd.
    My experience with Council of Elders as France on Immortal was superb, i would not call it unfair as it does not scale well later in the game but it gives you a clear advantage in the early game that makes catching up with you really hard.


    Fair beliefs:
    Apostolic tradition: IMO it's very similar to Council of elders a fair one and scales slightly better however the production in council of elders totally eclipses the food bonus that takes a lot of time to reward you for spreading, the cost of social policies being much higher that any tech at the time spreading religion is relevant which also make it's effect less noticeable even if you are spamming missionaries.

     
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  20. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I still think TR is a tad better than DI, which probably means its balanced if people are ranking it the other way as well.
     

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