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1/11 - Founder Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jan 21, 2020.

  1. ShadedSkies

    ShadedSkies Chieftain

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    I don't know if I could rank the founder belief system since you get to choose them and they're all situational. I generally use my religion to cover up a weakness, like if my tradition capital is small and I get an early religion, I grab the one that gives lump sums of food and culture. If my faith output is meh and I only plan on converting about 20 cities and would prefer having bonuses throughout the game instead of right now, I pick the way of transcendance. And if I get a really early religion and someone else nearby seems like they won't get it I'll grab council of elders.
    My favorite is still way of transcendance. Every era you get a free tech, a free wonder and 2 free pop in your capital. Since I love dashing through the eras it leaves the AI even further behind in the dust.
     
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  2. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Warlord

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    Seems like i was really underestimating the power of Council of Elders.
    For context i'm mostly an Emperor player, i find Immortal extremely challenging and most of my tries end in rage quit in renaissance because how far i fall behind and general poor performance compared to the rest of AIs.
    I started a game as Spain on Terra 8 civs standard size epic speed events on with truffles as my starting luxury, grabbed goddess of the hunt and settled 4 cities in addition to the capital which secured a religion before everyone else.
    I chose Council of Elders with orders got two missionaries spread religion to the nearby CS and this is where things just gone ridiculous the passive spread started kicking in converting all of Aztecs and the border cities of Iroquies, Byzantium, Shoshone and Brazil.
    I was 3 techs behind before founding a religion and thanks to the events i got a -112 science event early on when i was researching calendar putting me even lower.
    The moment the
    I managed to get Hanging gardens,Oracle, Haghia Sophia, Borobudur, The great wall, Parthenon, Petra and the Leaning tower of Pisa while fending off simultaneous attacks from 4 of the AIs The Iroquies did not hate me enough yet.
    Spoiler :

    Fast forward i beelined machinery and things were happening so fast thanks to the random city conversion from passive pressure, got enough crossbows to take Goshute, Sao paulo and currently trying to take Rio de Janiro.
    Montezuma had a huge army but seems like the maintenance costs are setting him back, still fighting with archers for some reason and is not really moving any where, Venice is getting bullied by shoshone, Assyria minding their own business in what seems to be a separate peninsula and the Iroquies finally turned on me but fighting crossbows on desert and marshes in my own land with the great wall is not going well for them.
    I'm still ahead in score, science even above assyria and raw military power which is pretty surprising especially since my last immortal game was an early rage quit because i fell so far behind the pack.
     
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  3. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Current game as Sumer. Standard continents map and speed.

    I went Authority and God of War; I killed France and pruned Carthage back to a single city in a early rush with my UU, leaving me unopposed on my continent with 11 cities on my continent and 6 city states.
    I founded on turn 80 and picked Council of Elders. Since Carthage wasn't likely to found, I saved for my Enhancer GP and enhanced in late classical.
    From there, the game was over, because I proceeded to convert my entire continent and found a shallow water bridge to the next continent, where Denmark had failed to found a religion. Between my own cities, Denmark, Carthage, and all the surrounding city states, I converted 27 cities unopposed
    Between my :c5science:science on conquests, settles, and conversions, I basically skipped medieval. I was generally 1-3 policies behind the wonders my tech level was unlocking, I just set my capital to whatever wonders were coming up and let the instant :c5production: production on conversion finish whatever was in the queue. I got Colossus, Angkor Wat, Hagia Sophia, Alhambra, Notre Dame in that order. After converting the easilly reachable civs and city-states I had enough :c5science:science to unlock astronomy. I picked off the last 4 unconverted city-states, but by then the yields had cooled off, since the ability caps at around 260:c5science::c5production:.
     
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  4. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    CoE could probably stand to scale slower. It is a huge mid game boost and then becomes quite small if you happen to convert late game.
     
  5. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I would probably just take -5%:c5science::c5production: off the initial amount. My game was essentially the most ideal situation that would ever be presented in a game. It's an enormously fun belief when applied correctly, and I would hate to see it neutered simply because I reported using it properly 1 time.
     
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  6. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Council of Elders starts at 60 of each (on standard speed). I'd start it at 50 instead as a starting point to making it more fair, but really it could probably go a lot lower and still be useful. :c5production: and :c5science: pair so well together, normally if you science is too high it doesn't help because you can't build things. Or your production is really high but it doesn't matter unless you unlock new buildings and units to use the hammers on.

    I really think that including hero worship in the same tier was generous, CoE brings you pretty close winning the game on its own, and the only condition is that you spread your religion.
     
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  7. azum4roll

    azum4roll King

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    It'd be better if Council of Elders scale with map size as well. On huge maps where everyone has 10+ cities it's absolutely bonkers. It could scale from 50-150 (20 cities) in standard size and 30-90 (40 cities) in huge and still not be too bad. Note that unlike Apostolic Tradition it triggers on passive pressure conversion and when AI spreads your religion for their own cities.
     
  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I took council of elders for another spin as Ethiopia, Deity, pangea, standard size and speed. Got my religion early (turn 70-something), and my last missionary was done on turn 151.

    Starts at 60 :c5production:/:c5science: per city converted. My last conversion got 168 :c5production:/:c5science:, and I think I'm out of cities to convert unless I do conquest.
    I have 9 cities all my religion. I converted 14 of the 16 cities states. Got all of France (7 cities) and Denmark (6 cities) to my religion because they didn't found one. I got 4 English cities, and 4 Polynesian ones, though they eventually went to another religion. I also temporarily converted 2 Celtish cities (there's no need to ensure your religion sticks with CoE, just one and done).

    That's a total of 55 cities. I'll use 114 :c5production:/:c5science: per conversion for estimating (the average of 60 and 168) that's 6,270 :c5production:/:c5science:, all within the first 80 or so turns of getting a religion. The average would be around about 78 :c5production:/:c5science: per turn.

    When I reach the industrial era through public schools (I didn't rush it, I got all but two Renaissance techs first), the next best AI (Celts) has 8 fewer techs than I do. She is the only civ in the Renaissance, all others are medieval. I built Hagia Sophia, Notre Dame, Forbidden Palace, Leaning Tower, Chichen Itza, Porcelain Tower, and Sistene Chapel in my holy city.

    I have to say that I don't think the downside of weak yields late game is relevant. It gave me Sistene Chapel, it's giving 10% culture in all cities, the wonders are more than enough to cover late game, and there won't be any actual competition late game anyways. The AI are all hostile, but I'm really far ahead in military tech so I really don't care.

    You could say this is the best possible case, but its really not. Spain and Celts are both on my continent, and the belief needs to balanced with high faith civs, not just one those with weak religious games. I'd say that CoE alone makes Ethiopia, Celts, and a few other civs top tier just by enabling them to consistently choose CoE, which has the potential to win the game by itself.
     
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  9. crdvis16

    crdvis16 Emperor

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    I'm in a Maya game currently and founded first so went CoE. I got unlucky and the other two civs on my continent also founded so I only ever converted 3 of their cities. However, I got all of my own (7), ~10 CSs, and 6 or 7 of Austria's so call it 27 total. Even at that modest amount it felt really strong. It didn't get me wonders (my culture was always behind for wonder requirements, should have taken iconography instead of Diocese I suppose) but it has kept me flush with culture and science. Not game breaking but still too strong relative to other founders IMO.

    I do like that CoE procs on passive spread but only works once per city while others (apostolic and pilgrim?) can hit the same city but require active missionary use. But yeah- CoE could probably stand to have lower scaling.
     
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  10. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Warlord

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    I think COE base starting yields could be reduced by roughly 20~30% to start at 45 :c5production::c5science: and the cap on yields could be raised from 20 to 25 or 30 cities.
    It makes it less explosive than it is and requires more commitment in terms of resources to get the yields.
    Don't get me wrong, i like COE and i like having strong beliefs especially Founders to encourage the race for founding first & early spreading but i think COE and Hero worship are just objectively superior by a big margin to the rest of founders.
     
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  11. Thibix Magnus

    Thibix Magnus Chieftain

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    how is way of the pilgrim supposed to work? Are there situations or strategies where you would pick it over other beliefs? If not what should be changed?
     
  12. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    The idea is that, if you have a missionary convert a city, you get culture only from CS cities or culture and tourism with the targeted civ from civ cities. Your yields depend on the number of followers from other religions and you don't even have to convert the city to your religion. Best situations are those where you have a lot of religions competing on your continent/Pangae and have the faith to spam out missionaries to convert cities of a civ with no religion to get policies faster. It's fairly situational but it can help you secure policies faster while acting as small Great Musicians.
     
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  13. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Warlord

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    I find way of the Pilgrim generally inferior to apostolic tradition, at the point you want to be spreading your religion :c5food: is much more valuable yield than tourism ... sure the trade route & conquering benefits of tourism exist but it's really minor effects at that point in the game and i would rather get a couple of extra citizens in my holy city than these.
    ٍLater in the game when tourism starts to matter :c5faith: costs of purchasing missionaries is actually high enough that you would rather buy a great person with the cost of 3/4 missionaries ...... if you care about tourism you are almost always choosing artistry and you are better off getting a musician than a couple of missionaries.
    I think it's a very weird founder belief, not a bad one but it just contradicts it self.
     
  14. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    The two are different enough that we are comparing apples and oranges if we are comparing them. Apostolic Tradition promotes aggressive spreading of your religion as soon as you get your religion. The later the game goes, the less effective it is. You want to grow your capital as much to help snowball that way. You are probably going very tall and want to work more specialists and/or unique improvements.

    Way of the Pilgrim is exactly the opposite where early spreading of your religion yields little to no good yields. Mid game is generally where this shines the most when a distant continent has cities that you can convert. Really late game isn't great as the costs can be pretty expensive. If you took Way of the Pilgrim, you will definitely want to get Borobudur to get 3 spreads each missionary to maximize your yields. While Great Musicians are decent, they require a decent investment in the form of Great Works to get more Tourism yields out of them and you only get to use them once. You'd be surprised how much Tourism you can get with a single missionary with three spreads. If you get 4 missionaries, then you get 12 spreads total and that can at times be more than what you get from a single Great Musician. Is this founder easy to use? It's probably one of the toughest to take advantage of. However, the return can be massive which you can't see with the AI.
     
  15. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    It’s probably worth building missionaries early and hoarding them until later for the best value
     
  16. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Warlord

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    Yo have to hoard a lot of gold to pay for their maintenance costs too.
     
  17. azum4roll

    azum4roll King

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    If you don't mind AIs being hostile at you it's best to spam missionaries against your neighbour founder's cities. That's what the Mayans always do with Way of the Pilgrim in my games anyway.
     
  18. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    I find that you have to do it AFTER they upgrade their religion though, as the new Prophet will fix their religion if you converted them too early.
     
  19. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Warlord

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    @CrazyG I saw you say that the new CoE is stronger in high end situations. I thought it was nerfed? How have you found it?

    I'm a big Hero Worship fan - I have a game now where I could have been the last founder with CoE but I decided to create a Holy Site and conquer my neighbor's holy city to take Hero Worship. I managed to enhance it with mosques too. The near permanent golden age is really needed to keep up on deity. I do think it's in the same tier as CoE. In it's best case scenario, it's a permanent golden age, enough faith for multiple great prophets and great people, and great generals / admirals. If you fail to conquer, it does nothing, but CoE also struggles if next to founding civilizations too.
     
  20. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I haven't actually used it since, but according to the notes it starts smaller but eventually reaches a higher cap than before. Which is the opposite of how I would change it.

    I'm not claiming CoE is always the best in every scenario. But they are situations where it truly trivializes the difficulty of the game. I found a screenshot of the most recent game I used it (pre-nerf), in which I build more than half the world's wonders, and eventually got a very early spaceship on turn 296. I'd credit all of that to CoE, and I can't say that it's alleged weakness of weak late-game bothered me in the slightest.
     
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