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1/11 - Founder Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jan 21, 2020.

  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The cap is lower than it used to be - it is 20, compared to 30 for the other city-capped founders.

    G
     
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  2. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Prince

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    I've mentioned in the past that indeed Way of the Pilgrim is extremely weird. IIRC the optimized way to use it is actually to let your Missionaries get some attrition so that you convert fewer people in the target city - except that's a lot of micro. I doubt the AI uses it well in that respect.
    And the best target cities are high-population yet not sensitive to your pressure (because you don't want pressure-made converts): I've found it's great to use WotP missionaries on Indian cities.
     
  3. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

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    Just wanted to say that it is possible though with civs that have strong early faith :). I am able to do this pretty consistently (not always but often) in my games because of the civs I favour. It is a balance though because being too strong in early science is actually a disadvantage in this case.

    That said, the yields you get from only having one city following your religion aren't amazing. It's 30 to each. Nice, but not game-changing. It's the classical-Medieval transition that is most meaningful for me, I can basically get a wonder for free if I enter with Theology.

    Becomes less relevant as time goes on and I find bugs out sometimes in the later eras (gives no yields). Also pales in comparison to Coucil of Elders, I really think that could use a nerf. Although I haven't used CoE it all that often so I'm going off a limited sample (and playing on Huge maps does make it stronger).
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2020
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    One thing about Apostolic Tradition that is easy to forget, that strong early culture can often get you wonder prereqs faster than other beliefs. While its true that Council gives you the raw production to build wonders quickly, if the culture push gives you access to a wonder 5 turns earlier its hard to beat that.
     
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  5. azum4roll

    azum4roll King

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    You WANT them to fix their religion so you can get more yields from them.
     
  6. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

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    Depends what you need I guess. I like to play high-culture civs so it's more science and hammers that I want.
     
  7. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

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    Just tried Cermonial Burial for the first time. To be honest, it seems weaker than Way of Transcendance which is what I usually take (which seems good without being unbalanced to me). I can imagine Cermonial Burial gets pretty good late-game... but it is worth the wait? I would love to see the initial value be higher and the scaling reduced.

    Also... it seems like most of the yileds it gives are pure faith? Is it designed to partner with faith-purchase beliefs? I picked it in this game because I founded last, so there weren't a lot of choices. It gives some culture but the faith aspect seems the main focus. It would be more appealing to me if it gave something else. Or even just less faith and more culture.
     
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  8. Gidoza

    Gidoza Emperor

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    Yeah - I was playing a game with Maya and took the Reformation Belief to the Glory of God...once I started purchasing Great People with it in Industrial, my problem was that I was sitting on a surplus of 60,000 Faith and simply could not purchase GP fast enough to drain it. So it's good for things like this that require lots of Faith...but the generation was so high that it sort of backfires on itself. More Culture would be nice.
     
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  9. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

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    Concerning Abode of Peace. The primary effect seems a bit weak? +1:c5gold: +1:c5faith: per 10 followers in foreign cities isn't much IMO. The secondary effect (related to city-states) is great but I feel the primary benefit should scale a bit better.
     
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  10. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN Warlord

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    Did Herp Worship get stealth nerfed? It's still strong but not like it was.
     
  11. Thibix Magnus

    Thibix Magnus Chieftain

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    what do people think about divine inheritance? Is there any circumstance it should be taken over other beliefs, when your civ has no innate GAP generation? Even in the most beneficial context (very tall play, fierce religious competition), you still have to put some efforts in reforming, thus spreading a bit. Even with a scrappy religion, I wonder if the early lead given by CoE, or the permanent yields from AT prophet wars, wouldn't lead to bigger late-game yields in the capital than DI because of compound effects. Besides, to make the best of DI you need to put some effort into goden-age related wonders instead of others. And unless it's hidden somewhere, it doesn't seem to boost tourism by 20% during golden ages?
     
  12. JamesNinelives

    JamesNinelives King

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    I just tried Divine Inheritance for a bit just now and found it mildly lacklustre so far. I expect it to ramp up later on, but even then Transcendance would have given me more yields. Only found I can think of which is slower to pay off is Ceremonial Burial. The building for reformation and the yields on holy sites are good though.

    Ideally I think it's suited for Tradition + Artistry, so that you get Golden Ages more often. I guess civs well suited to that playstyle might appreciate it (e.g. Brazil). The ones that I think would work best with though are actually Persia and the Aztecs who tend to go Authority. Authority into artistry might work well for them with this founder though. Other factors I think would be if you start near a monopoly resource that grants GAP - e.g. Ivory, and if you think you might have a good chance at golden-age-related wonders.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
  13. Thibix Magnus

    Thibix Magnus Chieftain

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    I haven't tried Ceremonial burial since when Byzantium could use TTGOG loop in classical era :D But still I would have thought it would be useful way sooner than divine inheritance. It seems designed as a faith source for tall play that otherwise lags in faith, to initially either pop more holy sites or actively expand your religion, mainly for diplomatic benefits and eventually world religion, and then have zero constraint on industrial faith GP faith purchases. For a tradition+artistry civ with no golden age bonuses, like Arabia, I feel golden ages are still not long enough by universal suffrage to justify DI over ceremonial... I suppose if DI is worthwhile for GA civs, it's fine, there are many of them already. And yet even for those I really wonder if it's worth it over all the other tall-friendly founders. Early yields are bigger later yields, but it's hard to estimate how much.

    Supposing both founders are available, for Authority Aztecs and Persia, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to get more golden ages with Hero Worship, than more benefits from golden ages... a classic question.
     
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  14. SuperNoobCamper

    SuperNoobCamper Warlord

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    Trying CoE again after the nerf feels really tough, it's nowhere close to what it used to be ... The bonus is still nice and can get you two or three wonders max but ughhh that's just about it.
    It falls off really hard and much earlier the rest of founders which is not exactly what i would like the power level of a founder belief to be at all.
    WoTP and Apostolic tradition seems better even tho the yields are different but the fact that the bonuses can be acquired multiple times meaning an effective way to convert faith into mainly culture plues Tourism/Food respectively is huge.
    I think right now if we are to sort founder beliefs on a tier list again CoE would be something like C or even lower IMO.
     
  15. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Prince

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    I agree with your assessment of CoE, but I think the current balance is quite decent: helping you get a few key Wonders is a big boost Vs non-founderd or founders with slow-starting beliefs, so it makes sense to me that it would fall of quickly.
     
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