[Vote] (1-13) Proposal: Urban Planning (Progress) Settler Production Bonus

[Recursive]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" if you'd be okay if this proposal was implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if this proposal wasn't implemented. You can vote for both options.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 1, Proposal 13
Proposer: @Urzamax
Sponsor(s): @Recursive
Previous Discussion Thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ing-progress-settler-production-bonus.679114/

Proposal Details
The Progress tree is supposed to be the Peaceful Wide option (more or less), which means that you're going to want to be making Settlers. Unfortunately, both Tradition and Authority are actually better at that specific task under most circumstances, at least in the early game (Tradition because the stronger capital with greater food generation means that the Pop loss is usually easier to recover from and it has more pops to work productive tiles, while Authority gets a higher overall level of production from its per-Policy bonus than Liberty offers, occasional productive bursts from border expansion, and of course it has the free settler at Imperium).

As such, I'm proposing that the +25%Worker and Trade Unit production bonus from Urban Planning be extended to Settlers as well, in order to ensure that Progress is able to keep up with its counterparts in this crucial stage of the game.

 

[Deljade]

Completely depends on the balance of Progress/Tradition at the current time. If this passes we should be ready to take something away in case Progress seems too good.

 

[youngsteve]

Completely depends on the balance of Progress/Tradition at the current time. If this passes we should be ready to take something away in case Progress seems too good.

I note improvements with Tradition & Progress, when it is Authority which is the weak tree.

 

[Dimmy]

Should even be all civilian units maybe. I find the Progress tree the weakest.

 

[nekokon]

I note improvements with Tradition & Progress, when it is Authority which is the weak tree.

Authority would get a buff soon after the barbarian change is passed (sooner or later based on common consensus, just not sure right this season because it's grouped with a bunch of other stuffs not everyone agreed upon)

 

[Slyceth]

I do like it, but it sucks that you're stuck in a certain policy tree and committed even though some factors in the game like map exploration, taking advantage of war, might change you from a thin civ to a wide civ, while still stuck on Tradition. Be careful not to make Progress too OP.

I usually leave Progress empty, then near the end of the game open it to get the science boost which is usually better than the last couple ideology policies.

 

[DeAnno]

My impression of Progress right now is it's supposed to be the "wide" tree, but it faces some struggles in this:

1) Sometimes you can learn a while after the first 1-2 policies that going wide is going to be more difficult than you expected for various inconvenient reasons.
2) Unlike Authority which can splash into Tradition and vice versa to get a somewhat functional border-blobber if plans go awry, Progress kinda sucks at splashing into either. There just isn't much combo potential.
3) Tradition and Authority do fine at going wide in their own ways, often better than Progress does.

So while Tradition has the niche of being great at building a defensive fortress civ and Authority has the niche of more profitable early war, Progress is kinda listless and confused and also at the same time forces the most stringent commitment. On reflection this buff doesn't really help with that problem, even though I think Progress is generally weakest right now and it probably won't hurt.

 

[Stalker0]

I actually feel the balance between Tradition and Progress is near perfect, because it seems like every 6 months the community switches their opinion on which one is better even though basically nothing has changed. there was a definite period of time that everyone thought Progress kicked Tradition's butt, now its Tradition is the best. Sounds like the best balance you could possibly ask for.

 

[josh4]

I actually feel the balance between Tradition and Progress is near perfect, because it seems like every 6 months the community switches their opinion on which one is better even though basically nothing has changed. there was a definite period of time that everyone thought Progress kicked Tradition's butt, now its Tradition is the best. Sounds like the best balance you could possibly ask for.

To me progress is the best and was for many patches. If you refer to contrast photojournal, we only get screens from two progress wins and they seemed very powerful even in the midgame. I don't see any sentiment or evidence that tradition is better. And keep in mind that if tradition is better, that probably stems from a too-peaceful AIs and from too easy culture victory, so it will receive a slight nerf soon and maybe a more substantial nerf to the tourism generation later.

Edit: Oh, and artistry is going to take a very nice and needed rebalance, which will shake tradition a lot IMO, possibly slightly nerfing it too.

 

[Stalker0]

Edit: Oh, and artistry is going to take a very nice and needed rebalance, which will shake tradition a lot IMO, possibly slightly nerfing it too.

It will be interesting. I think Tradition is getting a small buff, Artistry a small nerf.... so where will Tradition + Artistry land....we shall see.

 

[CrazyG]

It will be interesting. I think Tradition is getting a small buff, Artistry a small nerf.... so where will Tradition + Artistry land....we shall see.

Next patch if tradition works as intended with the yields to councils/monuments its a big buff IMO.

To me progress is the best and was for many patches. If you refer to contrast photojournal, we only get screens from two progress wins and they seemed very powerful even in the midgame. I don't see any sentiment or evidence that tradition is better. And keep in mind that if tradition is better, that probably stems from a too-peaceful AIs and from too easy culture victory, so it will receive a slight nerf soon and maybe a more substantial nerf to the tourism generation later.

Edit: Oh, and artistry is going to take a very nice and needed rebalance, which will shake tradition a lot IMO, possibly slightly nerfing it too.

I haven't played that game to completion but I'm competitive with the progress games despite having bugs slowing my yields down pretty substantially. I think progress works well given a large starting area.

 

[Rekk]

Next patch if tradition works as intended with the yields to councils/monuments its a big buff IMO.

Isn't your proposal to *remove* yields from everything but councils/monuments?

 

[CrazyG]

Isn't your proposal to *remove* yields from everything but councils/monuments?

Yea but it probably isn't passing and just the council/monument yields alone is a huge deal.

 

[josh4]

Yea but it probably isn't passing and just the council/monument yields alone is a huge deal.

Oh, I thought we are going to remove +2 culture from the sources to just one, and give the capital +1 working range.

Edit: I checked the thread. I think we should split the difference between proposals and get +1 from councils and herbalists, not lodges, and also get +2 culture from monuments and gardens, but not baths. In other things follow @pineappledan proposals. You proposal is just too radical for non-deity players I think. What you think, would you both guys PAD and Crazyg agree to that?

 

[CrazyG]

Oh, I thought we are going to remove +2 culture from the sources to just one, and give the capital +1 working range.

Edit: I checked the thread. I think we should split the difference between proposals and get +1 from councils and herbalists, not lodges, and also get +2 culture from monuments and gardens, but not baths. In other things follow @pineappledan proposals. You proposal is just too radical for non-deity players I think. What you think, would you both guys PAD and Crazyg agree to that?

I don't think that is how voting works, even if both Dan and I agreed

 

[CrazyG]

I was considering proposing another contrast photojournal to compare Tradition and Progress, as Carthage, to really stress test the idea that tradition just outperforms. However itll need to wait until next version for tradition fixes and the city state coup quest is strong that it actually tilts balance IMO.

 

[Stalker0]

I was considering proposing another contrast photojournal to compare Tradition and Progress, as Carthage, to really stress test the idea that tradition just outperforms. However itll need to wait until next version for tradition fixes and the city state coup quest is strong that it actually tilts balance IMO.

I'll also note my previous work on teh subject:

Tradition vs Progress - A side by side actual game comparison

So there has been discussion lately around Tradition vs Progress, and which one is ultimate better for your early game expansion. So I decided to put it to the test with an experiment. I started a save game at the first policy point, and decided to play out the first ~100 turns on Progress and...

forums.civfanatics.com

Tradition vs Progress 2 - A side by side comparison

This is experiment 2 in the Tradition vs Progress series I started in this thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/tradition-vs-progress-a-side-by-side-actual-game-comparison.659905/ In my last game, the number 1 critique was that I was playing the two styles "the same". They both aren't...

forums.civfanatics.com

Tradition vs Progress 3 - A side by side comparison

Alright, another round in the experiment! My usual notes and rules apply. I was much better at record keeping this time, so the results are very accurate. Gameplay Wise, very similar to Experiment 2. I went the same pantheons as noted before, and including a Petra for both, with Hanging Gardens...

forums.civfanatics.com

It should be noted that when I did those runs I think that was before the following changes:

1) Cities had a 7% penalty to science/culture (I think its 5% now).
2) Progress gained a +1 hammer on its policy (so +3 now instead of +2).
3) Progress' happiness policy was improved a bit (if I recall).
4) Happiness is generally easier now (at this point in the mod happiness was really brutal, dropping below 35% was much more common tahn it is now)
5) Progress' culture scaler was improved from 10 to 15 after this work.

 

[CppMaster]

However itll need to wait until next version for tradition fixes and the city state coup quest is strong that it actually tilts balance IMO.

So today:

Okay, I'll post one in a few hours. Not able to do modding at the moment.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal passed on November 1, 2022.