1.16 - Holy Roman Empire: looking for a strategy

[rmontaruli]

I'm introducing another big mistake of this game.
I attacked Poland, to get my third vassal without spreading Catholic religion in all its cities. Danzig was Protestant only.

Deadline is 1650 AD.
I attacked Krakow in 1630.
Riga began independent, and Poland became Protestant with one city left.

Spoiler :

Luckily i saved the day!
Poland capitulated.
I got open border.
I send a missionary to Danzig.
Catholic religion spread there.
I ask Poland to convert...

Spoiler :

1648 AD.
Golden age!!!

 

[rmontaruli]

You get the shrine for free if you found protestantism then join the reformation but that can be more trouble than it's worth

Good point.
And this is a matter for best strategy.
In my game i choosed to ignore reformation because i didn't want make a war.
I lost some turns to spread Catholicism again and rebuild some churches and monasteries...

 

[rmontaruli]

The third mistake of this game was the bad relations with Russia.
In the beginning of the game i was able to get open border and friendly relations with them giving Ethics for free.
Then i lost contact with Russians for a lot of turns.

At a certain point of the game i had 6/8 friendly relations with european civs but my relation with Bizantines got worse.
So, when Bizantium asked me to break my agreements with russians, i said yes.
And Russians never talked to me for lots of turns (note: that exclamative point before russian score in a previous screenshot)
I tried to keep Bizantines alive as long as i was able, but Bizantines collapsed at last, and my relation with Russians kept bad.

 

[DanLT3]

Great Statesmen can be used to improve relations.

 

[rmontaruli]

Let's talk about UHV3 and city placements.
UHV3 prolong the game beyond 1700 (Prussians born) until 1850.
Frankfurt flips to Prussians, and Brandeburg too, so my choice in this game was to settle Prag instead of Brandeburg: Prag does not flip.

Spoiler :

Less space but a stronger city in my core.
My strategy is to produce GA in Wien and GS in Prag, so i built related buildings and wonders.
In particular National Theatre in Wien and National Monument in Prag.
Frankfurt trains units, with barracks, military academy and a couple of great generals.

It worked: i got just GA and GS (and that GProphet in Rome who saved my UHV1), and i completed first part of UHV3 in 1800 AD.
Ten GA/GS in Vienna.

Spoiler :

Now i have 50 years at Epic speed to complete UHV3.

The first big problem, i don't know how to resolve is: how to de-vassalize my vassals?
Vassalized civs don't count for UHV3.

The other problem is to have enough european civs.
There are:
Portugal
Spain
France (vassalized)
England
Dutch
Prussia
Italy (vassalized)
Russia

Bizantines collapsed
Poland collapsed
Scandinavia collapsed

Some says Moors count as european, but at the moment they are very angry because of different religion, past wars and other things.

So i must try to de-vassalize my vassals, and then use diplomacy, gifts, and GStatesmen.

Anyway i think of an a-historical strategy: convert and vassalize Aztecs and Incas to get UHV2.
In my game England collapsed very soon and my vassal Italy could get two Conqueror events and get some cities in the new world.

 

[Hickman888]

For getting your vassals to declare independence, you have to demand tribute from them, and they have to feel bold enough to reject you. If you are much stronger than them, they will roll over to placate you. If they have grown into a colonial empire, however, they will feel confident enough to reject you (and thus start a war for independence). Most of their military strength will be found scattered all over the world in their colonies, so your military should be suitable enough to invade their territory to pressure back into peace. That is also one reason that Italy may not be the best vassal to take, as they will never develop colonies, unlike France, Spain, and Portugal, and thus it will be harder to get them to declare independence from you.

 

[rmontaruli]

Maybe in an update of the mod, rules could be changed and the effect of a civic could unbind vassal state (something like slaves...).

In my game, i posted screenshots, italy was able to get two conqueror events and colonize america.
So, i can try your suggestion, because i need to de-vassalize my vassals to achive UHV target.

I'll ask some tributes. But what if they say NO without de-vassalize?

 

[Hickman888]

Maybe in an update of the mod, rules could be changed and the effect of a civic could unbind vassal state (something like slaves...).

In my game, i posted screenshots, italy was able to get two conqueror events and colonize america.
So, i can try your suggestion, because i need to de-vassalize my vassals to achive UHV target.

I'll ask some tributes. But what if they say NO without de-vassalize?

I agree, I'd like to eventually see more flexibility and depth to the way vassals are handled. Wow, I don't think I've ever seen an Italy get conqueror events like that, that's nuts. And as you can see in my screenshot, the only two options for the vassal are to give in to the demand, or launch a war for independence.

Spoiler Demand Tribute :

 

[DanLT3]

Demanding all their resources usually makes them declare war on you and leave you as vassal.

 

[rmontaruli]

Unfortunately it didn't work.
I tried to ask Italy every resource they trade, for nothing, and the answer was: "Sure, take whatever you want! Sorry not to have more resources to gift to you!"

I'll fail UHV3.

Maybe i have to change my strategy and try to de-vassalize my vassals in 1650 in some way.

 

[Hickman888]

Unfortunately it didn't work.
I tried to ask Italy every resource they trade, for nothing, and the answer was: "Sure, take whatever you want! Sorry not to have more resources to gift to you!"

I'll fail UHV3.

Maybe i have to change my strategy and try to de-vassalize my vassals in 1650 in some way.

Yeah, I had that happen to me once with Portugal. They're too afraid of your military might, I believe. You might try deleting several military units until you are more equal in terms of strength, but I still think the easiest way of getting around this is to vassalize 3 of the 4 out of Portugal, France, Spain, Poland. As Poland collapses, and the first 3 grow to be very powerful colonial empires.

 

[Kott]

I think in theory it is possible to vassalize Poland, Byzantium and Vikings, then let them all collapse. But I have never succeeded with such a strategy.

 

[Hickman888]

I think in theory it is possible to vassalize Poland, Byzantium and Vikings, then let them all collapse. But I have never succeeded with such a strategy.

Poland is definitely the easiest candidate for vassalization, as they are both weak and a direct neighbor. The Vikings might be doable, but you would have to sail your army across the sea to attack their cities. The Byzantines, however, you would have to somehow get them to adopt Catholicism as their religion, which is hard considering they usually run Theocracy. If you could pull it off, that would be quite the alternate history game!

 

[Kott]

Necroposting.
How would you deal with Rome in the last version? The starting army is weak, time is not enough. I am confused.

 

[BaneFire]

Necroposting.
How would you deal with Rome in the last version? The starting army is weak, time is not enough. I am confused.

+1 this, basically every save I try Rome is just loaded with xbows with double city defence... good luck taking that with catapults and swordsmen!

 

[banzay13]

+1 this, basically every save I try Rome is just loaded with xbows with double city defence... good luck taking that with catapults and swordsmen!

Just tried. Epic/monarch
Switching to conquest, build barrack in capital - then skirmishers. You'll get two upgrade for them. Lancers and swordsman first moving to Budin - capture it and take promotions(!). Then were some skirmishers ready - send them with cats to Rome (workers build roads to Rome, some build with advanced start, to get you main army fast to target) and start bombarding, while lancers coming.

In my case 4 skirmishers was enough. I have 5 (last one was late and missed the party)

UPD. Look like something went wrong with this game.

Spoiler :

I have Islamic Egypt as vassal, and fight with Islamic Russia and Ottomans with Mongols

 

[banzay13]

To release vassal we need fulfillment of all three conditions

I was able to release Spain.
So you need to became very small (release all cites and left only Wien and Ofen, perhaps) or vassalize England, France, Spain or Portugal. Also you can switch to secular (in my game game Russia was Islamic...) and use Neuschwanstein Castle (you'll need GE probably), but even i got free statement from tech, and two more from settling GP and GG in Wien - i was short for 2 GP in Wien, coz i was need to use three GS to boost relation.
Anyway. Poland, and maybe Inca and Aztec or Poland and England and Spain best choice. France often too weak. Portugal often goin well with expansion too. And to ensure thier grow - gift them (except England of coz) Settlers, maybe with ships.
Not sure, what Inca and Aztec is good idea - coz if you left Spain - more likely they make war with France, Portugal, Italy... and all became asking you for help and ruin you relation.
Look like Poland, Spain and England best choice. Italy can grow strong and big, but you'll need give them Rome and lose gold and science race, and Venedig will be you core.

UPD. So. I released all cites, released Italy, and saved some GS. And won. But i didnt like this end of the game)))
UPD2. Another way to keep Poland from collapsing - capture Kiev and found Riga. And give them to them
UPD3. Didn't notice. UHV2 - vassals must be in Europe))

 

[banzay13]

UPD4. Strategy with Poland, Spain and France workout as planned.
Neuschwanstein Castle also workout. I was need reload, to no spent GM and GP and save them for GA, while building Castle in Baghdad (it take quite a lot of time). So after settling all GP in Wiena, i had 2 GS left. But i wasnt need in none of them. I got 8 pleased relation already (9 if use GS with Sweden, Italy was vassal of England, and even after use of GS, they still was Caution, so i could find out, count they as "free nation" for UHV or not. UPD. Entered WB and used 3 GS with them. No, vassalized nation don't count). Release France and Spain just before deadline. Tip. And if you pope - use crusade - it help boost relation with catholic civs.
I was in war with Russia several times (i didnt declare war) (they took Kiev in 1st war and tried to take Riga), in last war, i retook Riga, captured Astrakhan, began crusade, and made peace agreement - so got Vorkuta. Released two city to them. And got pleased relation.
Hint. Using skirmishes vs Rome. Use them first, and then cats. So you can inflict more damage.