1.17f and the speed of tech advancing!!!

[DrJambo]

Playing on Monarch level, large map and 12 civs.

I am currently ranked 4 in the demographic list although i'm probably higher in terms of culture and military clout than this rank would suggest.

Now, i know that tech trading has become a serious number 1 priority with the AI, especially amongst themselves.

HOwever, it's just gone in to the 1500s and i am nearly at replaceable parts and combustion... now correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't this a little premature for artillery, infantry and destroyers?! If i was way out in the lead occupying half the world then i might understand this... but i am only adequately positioned...

Everyone is so very technologically advanced, even inferior nations to me seem to be further ahead tech wise?!?

WEIRD!

It strikes me that the importance of tech trading amongst the AI is seriously speeding up the game, at least on Monarch with 12 civs on a large map. ALso, without the 5 or so free techs i got from goody huts and the Great Library, i'd be massively behind. As it is i'm just beginning to catch up with the AI now...

Previously, 8 civs on a standard map, the tech rate ran about normal with history, but things have somewhat changed since the AI became tech whores!

Maybe i'll need to adjust the tech rate in the editor to accommodate the significant speed of advancement?!

And yes, the AI is definitely better in the early periods than the Industrial onwards... this is the time we human players catch up! How has anyone else found the tech rate on certain sized maps with certain number of civs?

 

[loki]

hmm. The 1500s I usually hit industrial, but that's on regent, and I am way ahead of the AI (huge map, 6-8 civs). I remember not going any faster on warlord, though the AI was even slower.

I will hate the new patch if I cannot keep my tech lead

loki

 

[swt1]

The tech advance rate for the AI sure does seem to have sped up. I've never been very fast in advancement speed, but in my first game of 1.17f (Monarch, 8 civs), I was flying by 1700.

I always use to have a tech lead. Now, in the first game of 1.17f, I never had the lead. This isn't all bad as it does make for a more interesting game.

The AI was very difficult to trade with in the beginning. The other civs wouldn't trade with me for what I had. Then, very short into the game every civ had apparently traded with each other for all the other techs.

The really strange part was I demanded three or four techs for peace treaties, and the AI gave me the demands. this at least meant I didn't fall too far behind.

 

[ChrTh]

One shouldn't be concerned with the pace of history, because unlike the real world, Civ III does not have the ability to lose Techs.

Remember, the Romans werethisclose to building a Steam Engine in the 1st Century AD.

 

[swt1]

CHr Tr,

It looks really strange though. Also with the game if the Romans discover steam by the 1st century, I'll bet every AI civ will also have steam within 10 turns later.

 

[ChrTh]

swt1,

I'm not in disagreement with you. Tech Trading is a very important way for the AI to keep up, though (heck, a well-traded Tech can get you 100gp a turn), but it is horribly unrealistic (although stealing Tech makes sense...but how does one trade or steal Free Artistry).

It's just a quirk of the game we just have to deal with, I guess.

 

[swt1]

CHrTh,

The statement that "It's just a quirk", is a good way to put it. This last game was definitely challenging (ie more fun IMO). I suspect most of us will find out how to lead in tech in this version also.

It appears that the AI has devalued what techs are worth. They trade old tech easily for peace and gold. Though I found that new techs were still very costly.

This leads to easy trading by the AI and has the following results.

Tech is easy to research by the human civ. New techs by research are faster as the research required for a new tech decrease as the number of civs having that tech increases.

The easy AI trading also decreases the amount of time some civs spend on researching "old technology".

In addition the human player is able to to get multiple techs in peace offers and purchase tech at very low costs.

 

[Carbon_Copy]

One of the big things that affects your tech rate that most people don't consider is your placement of the Forbidden palace. Since almost all your gold for research comes from your two "core" city regions around your palaces, if you got an early one in a good location, you basically are running double the tech rate that you would be doing if you didn't build it (and can probably maintain at least a partial tech lead through the Medieval era and likely a total tech lead in the Industrial and beyond). The AI short-circuiting this production advantage with sweetheart tech deals at least partially solves this problem, I guess, but all it seems to do is speed the overall rate of tech. What I would enjoy would be for the AI to at least pretend to include you in such deals, as it is right now, if you're not the one initiating the brokering, you're left out of the loop.

The RBD 3 succession game was one such game where our tech rate just zoomed (in patch 1.16f), and we managed to snag most of the Ancient wonders (The Great Library and the Oracle, I think, were the ones that slipped us), as well as every single Medieval, Industrial, and Modern wonder. We laid our first squares of railroad in the 1100s, and are well into the Modern Era in the 1600s, and this was on a large map with only seven opponents (the object of the game was to win by score in 2050, which we can only do if we refrain from conquering any more civs in the next 375 years, else we'll win by Domination).

 

[Bamspeedy]

It appears that the AI has devalued what techs are worth. They trade old tech easily for peace and gold. Though I found that new techs were still very costly.

Yeah, you can also get some techs by signing a ROP agreement. Although I like to save ROP agreements for when I need an ally (some will go to join a war JUST for a ROP), but if I'm behind I can get some free techs by signing a ROP, then every 20 turns re-negotiate it for some newer techs.

 

[brody]

also don't forget that techs were never traded this freely in real life... in order to make the computer AI more powerful, they trade things a LOT more than any civilization ever would have back in the early days. Nowadays if there's technology, most of the world shares it, but back when there was a lot more war and such, nobody shared technology. Essentially the AI is taking a more 20th/21st century view on sharing

If you take that out, the AI isn't as capable technologically. In my current game in 1.16f, I have about half the cities as anybody else, but I'm leading the tech race. Go figure. If it speeds up techs, yeah it's a little annoying, but the challenge is really what's important.

If you want slower techs, you'll have to either edit how much they cost to research (can you do that in the editor?) or else have fewer civs...

 

[dreadknought]

yep it does seem to go to fast so I have started a min 0f 10 turns per tech rule in the editor to get the advances to work out about right. This keeps things more or less on equal ground though ive noticed that there are always a couple of lagging civs you can take advantage of. Example im like 3 advances up on Romens in current game and they try to trade for them all the time but I wont because they are on my acquire list.

 

[Northstar5757]

I've only played one game with the new patch but I definantly don't like the idea of the computer trading so much, although I guess it had to be done. Now whenever you trade one tech you have to trade it to every civilization in the game since by the end of your next turn everyone will have it anyways. Even civs that literally have nothing of value to trade end up trading with other computer civs for it.

It takes away another dimension from the already way too homogeneous AI. thank god for the colors otherwise it would be impossible to distinguish indy civs from just one big civ.

Still a great game, this is my one of my few complaints, whether its fixed or not I'll still keep playing.

 

[loki]

Playing another game with 1.17f for testing purpose. It's a huge map, warlord, 8 civs.
The layout is me single on a big continent, the french alone on a smaller island, and the 6 other civs on the same continent.
All right, it's now 560AD, I got a few techs from goody huts, I just finished researching republic : and I eventually built the Great Lighthouse.
As this was for testing purposes, I load a "multi" saved game to see what's the shortest path across the ocean to contact the other civs. I send my ocean going galley to reach the french first.
The french want "code of law" and "polytheism" from me : they seem to be far behind, as expected.
First glitch : joan is polite, but she doesn't want to trade her territory map in exchange of mine, plus those two techs !
(her territory map is allegedly much smaller than mine)
My galley now reaches the big continent... Surprise ! The chinese, and ALL THE OTHER AI CIVS are par with me technologically, if not ahead. I expected them to be slight ahead of the french, since they could trade with eah others.
So, that's on warlord.... And I usually play regent. Quite honestly; I have never seen this in my previous games.

loki

 

[chiefpaco]

Originally posted by swt1
CHrTh,

It appears that the AI has devalued what techs are worth. They trade old tech easily for peace and gold. Though I found that new techs were still very costly.

This leads to easy trading by the AI and has the following results.

Tech is easy to research by the human civ. New techs by research are faster as the research required for a new tech decrease as the number of civs having that tech increases.

The easy AI trading also decreases the amount of time some civs spend on researching "old technology".

In addition the human player is able to to get multiple techs in peace offers and purchase tech at very low costs.

I'm agreed with swt1 100%. I was looking for some sort of mention around here about researching "already discovered" techs but haven't found it yet in any threads. I'm playing my 1st game under 1.17 (but only my 2nd overall at Emporer).

My observations (from 1 game, so taken with grains of salt):
- Tech research value decreased with each civ that has it. I noticed this while I was researching something new, the #turns suddenly dropped as others discovered/traded it. I don't recall this happening before. Is this new (or am I finally learning something at Emporer I overlooked before)?
- Tech trading value seemed a bit lower early on, but back to normal after the middle ages. i.e. early trading seemed a bit easier.

Therefore, I found:
- Getting ahead in tech was really hard. Perhaps the luck of the draw in my game, but everyone's sharing & researching new ones are costly.

Buying techs from other civs is still good, but it may be less expensive to just research it yourself. I like the notion that reseraching "discovered" techs is cheaper. It seems realistic that it's easier to discover something someone else has. But, why would you ever consider stealing now (as if it was ever a viable option...)

By keeping everyone current it has elevated the game, IMHO. There were no easy pickings for a war and no backwards civs to sell tech to.

 

[loki]

The lowered cost for already known techs was already there in previous versions. It's always been in the game.
What's happening now in 1.17, is that the value of tech has been much lowered in the AI code, so they will trade them very easily between each others (see my remark about the territory map being refused for two techs...) : as the code is the same for every AI, they WILL trade a territory map for two techs between each others...
Maybe what you experienced was a huge drop in the tech cost because in the span of two turns, every AI civs knew the tech

loki

 

[chiefpaco]

(Loki)***Maybe what you experienced was a huge drop in the tech cost because in the span of two turns, every AI civs knew the tech***

You're probably right, Loki. It is more apparent now, that's all.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

note
This is not a whine and not a rant, so please refrain from flaming me.note

OK, I`ve played several games on Monarch under 1.17f, and never have a chance! The AI researches tech at double my rate even if it can at max have a third of my beaker production (checked that via multi.sav - cheat). Also, the AI seems to know who researches what tech, and then chooses one that noone researches. That one, it will only deal to AIs. This means, that 4 AI research 4 times as fast as the human player all other things being equal. Before 1.17 they never did this - I was able to stay 1 to 3 tech behind. Now, I can even offer like 20 gpt, World Map and a lux - and they won`t sell me Construction while they`re busy researching Education!


Mind you, this is in games where against my tradition I always was friendly and nice to everyone.

Also, they all go to Monarchy before I reach Polytheism - which they obviously try to keep from me. Even when they`ve had Poly and then reached 5 new techs - they won`t trade it to me. They also block access to techs leading to Republic - is the Ai intentionally trying to keep the human from advanced governements?????


Also, I get attacked at the latest 20 turns after everyone but me has Feudalism. They can by then have tripple my military, since they can poprush to hearts content and then upgrade, while poprush for me means my cities never get larger then size 2 - awfully slow!


As for combat: I`d sometimes then like to have a lucky break - might give me a chance to survive! But my Spearmen always loose to Archers (vet-vet or even worse vet-regular); my vet Warriors attacking regular Horsemen will loose like 75% of the time even on grassland, and my Swordsmen only rarely can fight down defending Spearmen in the open.

I`ve had a period of games under 1.16 where I won far to many fights, but now it is clearly against me again

--> the RNG for combat is way too stringy for the touchy times in early play when your behind! Doesn`t matter when you can produce many more units than the other guy, but when 1 or 2 units decide over your fate.....

The map reveal cheat also showed that AIs often only use 1 (capital: 2) defenders in central cities - something a human can`t do because only the AI knows it`s opponents troop deployment before Espionage (no, don`t flame, just try it out - they know where you`re weak even if on the map they should only see the best defender in each city they know where you have 5 Knights fortified since 20 turns - and where there`s none)



btw: this comes from a player who always won on Monarch and often quit games on Emperor because they got boringly easy around the time RR came round......

so, whatever Firaxis did in the patch - I`ll now try Regent and hope that even there means the AI only gets so many advantages that it`s really even.....


another thing: in the after action review of a game I saw the Germans build 11 cities in 12 turns just after I attacked them. they went from 5 to 16 - my campaign was hopeless since I had to mass at least 6 Swordsmen and 2 Sopearmen, of which usually only 1 or 2 Swordsmen would survive to take 1 city with 2 Spearmen!

Moderator Action: Threads merged since both are about fast tech advancing in 1.17f.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

OK, now this is Regent level, new game. Just met babylon and America. Never did them anything bad, never refused anything.

Now go and check their trade offers........


THIS SUCKS!!!!!


How the F**** am i supposed to play that kind of game??????

 

[planetfall]

Loki,

Check recent postings about 1.17f. 1.17f also reduced the cost of about 10-12 techs. This will also speed up the tech acquisition.

I don't recall which tread gave the details but there are not too many to check, look for a list of techs and old cost with new lower cost list.

 

[loki]

I agree with you on the tech part. Although I never tried on monarch, I have conducted experiments on warlord where I barely got even with the AI by middle age (I play regent, most of the time).
I can't say anything about combats though, because I almost never enter war before late middle age.

loki