[Vote] (1-28) Proposal: Netherlands Polder buildable on Coastal sea tiles instead of fresh water tiles.

[Recursive]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" if you'd be okay if this proposal was implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if this proposal wasn't implemented. You can vote for both options.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 1, Proposal 28
Proposer: @Dragonfabri
Sponsor(s): @pineappledan, @Rekk
Previous Discussion Thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ea-tiles-instead-of-fresh-water-tiles.679625/

Proposal Details
Currently polders are buildable on fresh water tiles and marshes. While definetly better than vanilla in terms of usefulness, it's still a bit underwelming both in terms of yelds and DEFINITELY in terms of flavour and historical accuracy.

Problem:

• Historical accuracy: Polders are not accurate historically, if they are meant (as the civilopedia entries imply) to represent the Dutch efforts to claim land from the SEA. This isn't represented at all by... building better farms and... cleaning marshes?!
• In-game balance: While Polders are much better in VP than in Vanilla (thanks to more tiles being able to have them and closer bonuses to their yelds in the tech tree), they however compete with way earlier improvements (farms), and late game the yelds of a farm could be better than those of a polder. I don't think Polders need yet even more yelds, but rather more tiles to host them without competing with other common-use improvements. Coastal sea tiles are the perfect solution, even without any adjacency boni, since they'll be much more common and improve otherwise useless tiles

Proposed change

Polders can be built on Coastal water tiles or Marshes only.
Polders can be walked on as a land tile. Cannot be built over sea resources.
Can only be built when adjacent to 3 land tiles at least.
Can be demolished, result is usual border displacement of units on it.
+1 production if near another polder

Clarifying Edit
Embarked Workers will be able to build Polders on coast tiles (while embarked).
Ships can still pass through Polders.

 

[usadefcon1]

@Recursive
The previous discussion link sends me back to this page.

 

[Recursive]

@Recursive
The previous discussion link sends me back to this page.

Fixed.

 

[Stalker0]

So....how are they built....using work boats? Workers can't build things in the water can they?

 

[TakkuPanda]

So....how are they built....using work boats? Workers can't build things in the water can they?

They can be made to. For example, with 4UC (MUCfVP), Indonesian workers can build the UI on coastal tiles.

 

[Hinin]

So....how are they built....using work boats? Workers can't build things in the water can they?

They can (see the Indonesian UI in the 4UC mod as an example).

 

[Rekk]

Samurai in BNW can do the same thing.

 

[pineappledan]

It’s actually the better option of the 2.
Work boats don’t seem to know what to do with other improvements, but you don’t have to train the worker AI to build coastal stuff; they seem to do perfectly fine at it.

 

[Slyceth]

Walking on coastal tiles? I would love that amount of land shaping for every civ

 

[Stalker0]

They can (see the Indonesian UI in the 4UC mod as an example).

Ok that's fine, but that is an entirely new feature that should be documented in the proposal.

Netherlands UA: Workers can now walk on coastal tiles without embarkation.

 

[pineappledan]

Ok that's fine, but that is an entirely new feature that should be documented in the proposal.

Netherlands UA: Workers can now walk on coastal tiles without embarkation.

Workers can improve things while embarked. It doesn’t require us to change workers embarkation abilities

 

[Stalker0]

Workers can improve things while embarked. It doesn’t require us to change workers embarkation abilities

Ok so the workers embark and then improve. Probably best to note that in the proposal, I get that they technically already exists but nothing does that in the core mod right now, so its good for people to understand how the mechanic will work.

Will there be animation for that work?

 

[pineappledan]

Ok so the workers embark and then improve. Probably best to note that in the proposal, I get that they technically already exists but nothing does that in the core mod right now, so its good for people to understand how the mechanic will work.

Will there be animation for that work?

Vanilla samurai did it.
No, boats don’t really have a lot of animations.

 

[Stalker0]

Vanilla samurai did it.

and a lot of player base hasn't played vanilla in YEARS. I'm not asking for the moon here, just a little clarification in OP.

 

[azum4roll]

I have a lot of questions.

Will it still take the same time to improve polders?
Can polders still be pillaged, or are they instantly destroyed? (I may miss the pillaged polder graphics)
Can they be built on lakes?
Any yield changes compared to the current polders? They'll be much rarer than the current ones.

 

[pineappledan]

Will it still take the same time to improve polders?
Can polders still be pillaged, or are they instantly destroyed? (I may miss the pillaged polder graphics)
Can they be built on lakes?
Any yield changes compared to the current polders? They'll be much rarer than the current ones.

- the same for now. We can return to that at a later time
- they can be pillaged/repaired
- yes (blocking lakes is new code, but could be done later if desireable)
- There wasn't a robust discussion on what yields they should give. Current Polder is 3 2 1. These will be rarer, but they will also be on water tiles which are boosted by lighthouse, harbor, etc. I am thinking of lowering it to 1 2 1 to start. The food is excessive on water tiles, but keep the other yields the same for now. No changes to tech yields

 

[ridjack]

- the same for now. We can return to that at a later time
- they can be pillaged/repaired
- yes (blocking lakes is new code, but could be done later if desireable)
- There wasn't a robust discussion on what yields they should give. Current Polder is 3 2 1. These will be rarer, but they will also be on water tiles which are boosted by lighthouse, harbor, etc. I am thinking of lowering it to 1 2 1 to start. The food is excessive on water tiles, but keep the other yields the same for now. No changes to tech yields

Heavily disagree with any nerfs to the current Polder yields, especially if they're going to be more rare. They're already one of the worst UIs in the game, even accounting for modmods. The boosts to sea tiles will elevate them somewhat if they remain as-is, but your proposed nerf would reduce them to basically being the exact same for a huge chunk of the game, unless I'm missing something. (Not unlikely.)

WRT to the main topic: I don't currently have a map in front of me to look at, but I feel like two tiles may be too restrictive at the current Polder yields. Will have to see when (if) it's implemented, I suppose, since I missed my chance at making this point before the vote. Strike that; after pulling up a current game (and assuming Polders will be able to be adjacent to one another), this seems completely fine.

 

[pineappledan]

unless I'm missing something. (Not unlikely.)

riverside Grassland tile: 2
Sea tile with Lighthouse & Harbor (same tech level as Polder): 4 1
Lake tile with Aqueduct: 51

at late medieval, sea tiles are already 21 stronger than grasslands, which get no other boosts until power plants.
In addition to the tech boosts we are keeping the same for Polder, they will also benefit from:
Seaport (1 to sea tiles)
Windmill (2 to lakes)
Exploitation Policy (1 to sea tiles)

If I reduce their base by 2, Polders will still have +1 over their current form at minimum, but also be much stronger in lakes, and gain more yields over time than they did before.
They would be weaker in Marshes, but that's a pretty rare prereq, and that seems acceptable to me, because marshes can be strongly augmented with pantheons and later building boosts, so this makes the yields more regular for the Polder overall.

The other important factor to consider is that boosting sea and lake tiles is just an unalloyed good. If you are a civ that doesn't have sea polders, you don't get to improve sea tiles at all. But the current polders not only come with an opportunity cost, they come with a BIG opportunity cost by competing directly with farms for the best tiles. So not only will Polders come out slightly ahead re: yields, they will just be More Yields, plain and simple, no strings attached.

Polders really ought to be compared to a riverside grassland tile with a farm on it (5+ at Civil Service), ignoring all adjacencies, and possible bonuses (eg Cathedrals).

 

[randomnub]

I'm worried about graphical inconsistencies and the ability to use polders to unnaturally connect chains of small islands or blocking sea routes.

 

[pineappledan]

I'm worried about graphical inconsistencies and the ability to use polders to unnaturally connect chains of small islands or blocking sea routes.

Does not block ships. Let’s land units go on water tiles like how forts let boats on land tiles. Polders in water actually looks better than they do on land right now. Bridging islands is dope and intended.