(1-34a) Cities Don't Demand Unknown Resources

[balparmak]

Some populi including me have a fundamental dislike about cities demanding unknown resources.

Proposal:
- Cities do not ask for unknown resources. Known resources include any resource the player has discovered (including unimproved and unowned), and all resources known by players met by the player. All luxury resources become known at Astronomy*.

As an upside, this gives a strategic aspect to the decision to explore. If you have all known resources, you may want to delay exploration as long as possible to enjoy your WLTKD for longer.

*: While we could still use the "resources known to the met players" method, in practice, everyone would know about every resource shortly after Caravels. The added flavor/immersion does not justify the cost of computing in this case.

Moderator Action: Proposal amended by request. - Recursive

 

[Recursive]

@balparmak This proposal isn't specific enough. Please provide the precise numbers/formula you are proposing, or your proposal will be vetoed. You cannot suggest examples for later debate in a proposal thread OP, you must have it already figured out when you make the proposal (though you can amend it).

If both are passed, the timer can be longer.

Additionally, proposals must be independent from each other. Proposals which are contradictory are counterproposals.

 

[balparmak]

Fair point, edited the post. The two proposals are independent, I just wanted to highlight a possible interaction but have taken that out to avoid confusion.

 

[nekokon]

I don't think this is necessary. You're already encouraged to get as many lux as possible this won't change much, but at the same time it can encourage gamey behavior like delaying exploring to keep the new buff going.
I also don't know how this is related to trading last resource or leaving resource unimproved. Neither actually helps anything with or without this proposal given we're already incentivized to collect all lux.

 

[Rekk]

Delay exploring to your peril.

 

[nekokon]

*Laugh in warmonger*

 

[balparmak]

I don't think this is necessary. You're already encouraged to get as many lux as possible this won't change much, but at the same time it can encourage gamey behavior like delaying exploring to keep the new buff going.
I also don't know how this is related to trading last resource or leaving resource unimproved. Neither actually helps anything with or without this proposal given we're already incentivized to collect all lux.

I'm not sure about that. I'd say you are strongly discouraged as long as you don't have all possible resources.
Example pre-Astronomy: You acquire all resources on your continent through trade (i.e. resources known to you). Now your cities will demand resources from other continents, which are impossible to acquire at that point. It's simply a mistake to buy non-WLTKD resources from other civs, as you ensure the cities will ask resources harder to acquire.

Rek's right on exploration, and it makes sense both historically and strategically. If you have strong WLTKD bonuses you may forgo the benefits of exploration, like China had done famously. It's a valid strategic decision

 

[nekokon]

I'm not sure about that. I'd say you are strongly discouraged as long as you don't have all possible resources.
Example pre-Astronomy: You acquire all resources on your continent through trade (i.e. resources known to you). Now your cities will demand resources from other continents, which are impossible to acquire at that point. It's simply a mistake to buy non-WLTKD resources from other civs, as you ensure the cities will ask resources harder to acquire.

Rek's right on exploration, and it makes sense both historically and strategically. If you have strong WLTKD bonuses you may forgo the benefits of exploration, like China had done famously. It's a valid strategic decision

I don't understand how you came to that conclusion. WLTKD can now check for all resources available so it doesn't matter if you bought the resource as non-WLTKD, you can still get the benefit if the city rolls that lux later on.
Or maybe I misunderstood the patch note (what we own doesn't include what we bought), I didn't pay much attention to WLTKD in my latest game.

 

[AndreyK]

I think it very good proposal, it also deals with case when you obtain all luxuries possible. I opened multiple issues in Github, but never got an answer, I had all possible luxuries and when WLKD is over, my cities ask for "resource that you didn't discover yet", so I can't get WLKD until I lose access to some luxury(by losing CS alliance or trade deal ending or burning improvement) and only then I get note of some specific resource needed.

 

[notaspambot]

Just to make sure everyone is on the same page, from 2.7 patch notes:

   We Love The King Day
   - Duration is now halved to 10 turns, scaling with game speed
   - Cities can now demand resources you already own (but not those within 3 tiles of the city)
   - AI will no longer value resources as IMPOSSIBLE! but will still avoid asking for resources without a reason
   - Open to better suggestions on how to handle this - make a VP Congress proposal

I think the proposal might have held weight in previous versions, but makes WLTKD too superfluous as of the current one.

 

[Stalker0]

Just to make sure everyone is on the same page, from 2.7 patch notes:

   We Love The King Day
   - Duration is now halved to 10 turns, scaling with game speed
   - Cities can now demand resources you already own (but not those within 3 tiles of the city)
   - AI will no longer value resources as IMPOSSIBLE! but will still avoid asking for resources without a reason
   - Open to better suggestions on how to handle this - make a VP Congress proposal

I think the proposal might have held weight in previous versions, but makes WLTKD too superfluous as of the current one.

is that 3 tiles of any of your cities, or 3 tiles of the city in question?

 

[CppMaster]

"The city".

 

[Recursive]

is that 3 tiles of any of your cities, or 3 tiles of the city in question?

The city in question.

 

[Recursive]

Ehhh, why not. I'll sponsor this.

Proposal Sponsors: Recursive.

(Sponsors have indicated that they are able and willing to perform the code changes required for this proposal if the community votes Aye on it. Other coders are free to sponsor this as well. A proposal without a sponsor will not advance to the Voting Phase.)

 

[balparmak]

 

[Stalker0]

I'm not understanding the "life's good" bonus. Is this meant to be a "little WLTKD" or is this a bonus that can stack on top of a WLTKD?

 

[balparmak]

Little WLTKD. The reason: Since cities can only ask for known resources, it may make getting a perpetual WLTKD too easy in the first half of the game, so you'll get a little WLTKD instead of a full one. That said, if you manage to get all possible resources (which can only happen after exploration), you'll get a full perpetual WLTKD, which can only happen in the latter part of the game.

 

[Stalker0]

Little WLTKD. The reason: Since cities can only ask for known resources, it may make getting a perpetual WLTKD too easy in the first half of the game, so you'll get a little WLTKD instead of a full one. That said, if you manage to get all possible resources (which can only happen after exploration), you'll get a full perpetual WLTKD, which can only happen in the latter part of the game.

Ok, and how much WLTKD bonus is increased by each lux you find, the formula doesn't really make sense to me

 

[balparmak]

Depends on how many unique luxuries spawn on the map, which is dependent on the map size IIRC. To keep the numbers simple, let's say your WLTKD duration is 10 turns and there are 10 luxuries, you'll get 2% of your WLTKD bonuses per turn with each luxury you acquire. If you know about only 5, but have each of them, you'll get Life's Good, giving you 20% of your WLTKD bonuses, as it stacks with the per luxury bonus, your final modifier will be 30% (20% + (5 x 2%)). If you acquire all 10, you'll be in constant WLTKD, i.e. 100% bonuses each turn.

Made some clarifications on the first post.

 

[Stalker0]

I think part of my confusion is that you keep mentioning production and food in your example....but WLTKD provides neither of these. It only provides a +25% growth bonus currently, there is no production or straight food benefit.