[Vote] (1-35) Proposals for Woodsman Promotion

[Recursive]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" for every proposal you'd be okay with if it were implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if these proposals weren't implemented. You can vote for any number of options.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

VP Congress: Session 1, Proposal 35
Title: Woodsman promotion provides +10% CS while in rough terrain
Proposer: @Stalker0
Sponsor(s): @Recursive
Previous Discussion Thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...provides-10-cs-while-in-rough-terrain.679776/

Proposal Details
Proposal: Remove the defense bonus to woodsman and instead make it "you gain +10% CS when in rough terrain"

Rationale: The woodsman promotion is neat but rarely used because you are giving up the raw combat power of a straight CS boost. Its also a deadend promotion so you have to really want to commit to the power. Further, the defensive power of woodsman is a bit in conflict with double movement, generally you want your attackers to be mobile, while your defender stick in a space and hold an area, but then you aren't using the double movement.

Making it a simple +10% CS in rough terrain gives the promotion solid power with some offensive and defensive potential.


VP Congress: Session 1, Proposal 35a
Title: Woodsman promotion moved to Shock I
Proposer: @ma_kuh
Sponsor(s): @Recursive
Previous Discussion Thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/51-proposal-woodsman-promotion-moved-to-shock-i.679796/

Proposal Details
Change: Woodsman requires Shock I or Drill II (instead of Shock II or Drill III; still only for spears and swords).

Rationale: Although niche, Amphibious is a useful promotion for dealing with river-heavy starts that would otherwise make it incredibly difficult to defend your own starting territory. Woodsman is also useful for this same situation, but comes too late to make a difference against forest walking barbarians or mounted units; once it does, you often have roads connecting your cities, negating this niche. By moving Woodsman earlier, the barrier to entry is lowered and allows for an often-skipped promotion to have a role in the game.

 

[Slyceth]

Promotions are a bit of mess if I'm honest, without the promotion tree mod I didn't know where the "heal every turn" promotion was sometimes.

 

[azum4roll]

Clarification needed:
How would +10% CS while in rough terrain be coded? Currently the defense is given through RoughDefense which increases CS by 10% when defending in rough terrain, which is simple, but both RoughAttack and RoughRangedAttackMod likely work on the target tile instead. Which is fine for melee since you're moving into rough to attack, but why would a Woodsman ranged unit be better at shooting into trees or hills regardless of where the ranged unit is?

I'm voting no on +10% CS for now.

 

[nekokon]

Clarification needed:
How would +10% CS while in rough terrain be coded? Currently the defense is given through RoughDefense which increases CS by 10% when defending in rough terrain, which is simple, but both RoughAttack and RoughRangedAttackMod likely work on the target tile instead. Which is fine for melee since you're moving into rough to attack, but why would a Woodsman ranged unit be better at shooting into trees or hills regardless of where the ranged unit is?

I'm voting no on +10% CS for now.

Woodman is exclusive to melee though

 

[Stalker0]

Clarification needed:
How would +10% CS while in rough terrain be coded? Currently the defense is given through RoughDefense which increases CS by 10% when defending in rough terrain, which is simple, but both RoughAttack and RoughRangedAttackMod likely work on the target tile instead. Which is fine for melee since you're moving into rough to attack, but why would a Woodsman ranged unit be better at shooting into trees or hills regardless of where the ranged unit is?

I'm voting no on +10% CS for now.

I felt it would work the same as the old skirmisher doctrine. That would gave you a bonus to attack (or penalty) based on what square the unit was currently in. So I assume you would code it just like that.

 

[Rekk]

Clarification needed:
How would +10% CS while in rough terrain be coded? Currently the defense is given through RoughDefense which increases CS by 10% when defending in rough terrain, which is simple, but both RoughAttack and RoughRangedAttackMod likely work on the target tile instead. Which is fine for melee since you're moving into rough to attack, but why would a Woodsman ranged unit be better at shooting into trees or hills regardless of where the ranged unit is?

I'm voting no on +10% CS for now.

Why wouldn't it work like how +10% CS in feature currently works? Target tile when attacking (ie attacked tile when attacking), target tile when being attacked (ie defending tile when defending).

 

[azum4roll]

Woodman is exclusive to melee though

Iroquois.

I felt it would work the same as the old skirmisher doctrine. That would gave you a bonus to attack (or penalty) based on what square the unit was currently in. So I assume you would code it just like that.

Why wouldn't it work like how +10% CS in feature currently works? Target tile when attacking (ie attacked tile when attacking), target tile when being attacked (ie defending tile when defending).

You two already have opposite ideas. And why would a Woodsman ranged unit be better at shooting into trees or hills regardless of where the attacker is?

Stalker is the proposer though, so I guess it should be implemented using his idea. Will be new code though.

 

[nekokon]

I forgot about Iroquois lol. This is a pretty edge case then.
Revoted, I think in this situation maybe we can use another idea than giving woodman 10% cs in rough terrain. In the first place it was proposed with the assumption that it's melee exclusive (thus getting bonus to defending doesn't fit as much as getting bonus to attacking to go along with the movement bonus which would only be the case for melee). Can make a new proposal to change the defensive bonus to something else next season, can keep it for now.

 

[Tekamthi]

imo the idea of making units specialists in specific terrain is fun and interesting gameplay -- whether it works out this way in-game, maybe not so clearly, but i'd prefer to keep this flavor all the same.

I'd rather see new promos added to cover the spectrum of rough terrains, rather than have just this one confer a broad rough terrain CS bonus on one promo.

good rationale for moving up to 'shock I', though i think it overstates the case a little. voted for this option, or nay.

 

[Recursive]

Proposals "Woodsman promotion provides +10% CS while in rough terrain" and "Woodsman promotion moved to Shock I" passed on November 1, 2022.