1.9 faction balance

[Ahriman]

As we're nearing the end of this mod, I think its worth taking a final pass at faction balance and uniqueness.

As it stands now, this is what we have.

Atreides:
Pilot school building: boosts hornets and thopters.
Ducal guard and order of Agamemnon promotions. Allows small elite infantry core.
Hawk thopter. Extra movement.
Beesting interceptor. Extra range (and maybe strength).
No espionage.
Duke's bench UB (espionage defense).
Intelligence post (espionage defense).

They get basically nothing late-game.

We talked about a sonic tank, but never created one. I think this would be a very nice way of rounding out the end game, and nice Dune PC game homage. I would imagine this to be a lower strength medium scorpion, but with collateral damage.

I would also consider making the Order of Agamemnon promotion +2 strength, but coming later in the game.

Harkonnen:
Slavery civic. Allows superior whipping.
Slaves; improvement construction.
Slave pit UB; doesn't do much. Could we improve it? +10% hammers, -10% commerce?
Howitzer UU. Mid-game Siege unit.
Traitor: espionage unit good when used by human, weak used by AI.
Devastator. Super-heavy tank.

I'd really like to see them have a bit more resource exploitation focus.
How about: buildings that add extra unhealth but improved industrial production.
For example, their factory could be:
+10% hammers
+10% hammers, +1 unhealth with ore resource.
+10% hammers, +1 unhealth with nitrates resource.
+10% hammers, +1 unhealth with crystal resource.

Unhealth will also synergize somewhat with their lower average populations due to whipping; unhealth is less painful for smaller cities.

Corrino:
Sardaukar cooperation UR. This is a penalty in some sense, remember, because it blocks you from getting another resource.
Selamlik. Tribunal UB which heavily reduces war weariness.
Sardaukar Legionary. URU. Midgame superior melee.
Sardaukar Noukker, UU late game superior melee.
Levy trooper. ? I argue for making this a superior maula guardsman, so the UUs are spread through the game somewhat.
Medium espionage, weak used by AI.
All leaders have the Imperial trait, which is possibly the strongest (50% faster settlers in a game that encourages rapid expansion).

If we do trait balancing that weakens the relative power of Imperial, then we probably need to give them something else.
It would be neat to give them extra votes in the Landsraad - 25% more votes? That could also be part of Imperial trait.

Ordos:
Chem trooper UU, anti-guardsman/melee.
Trike: Quad UU.
Good espionage unit.

Ordos are pretty light on abilities. Their "flavor" in-game comes mostly from their AI personality.

Could we add a Deviator missile launcher UU, that had a 10% chance of adding a "confused" promotion to each unit it damaged. Confused prevents the unit from moving, and wears off probability 100% after 1 turn.

Could we also add a UB that boosts espionage? Maybe an assassin's school UB that gives much more espionage income. Saboteur academy?

Or; how about a techno-scavenging faction ability, to play up this role? Every time they destroy an enemy unit, they get 5% of its cost in beakers towards their current tech. Or a flat X beakers?
Maybe based on a Scavengers promotion that all Ordos units get?

Bene Gesserit:
Very good espionage units.
Missionaria Protectiva UB, boosts religion and happiness.
The 4 Kwizatz units, very powerful stack boosters.
...
That's it.

Ecaz:
Smuggler unit. Good gold booster.
Sculptor's garden. Good trade booster.
Elaccan gladiator. Questionable flavor, moderate utility.
Moderate espionage - semuta den mechanic needs to be cleared up. Better to make this espionage only I think. Remove the extra landing stage, just make the Semuta importer a UB national wonder that requires Offworld trade tech, and remove the Semuta resource. And make the Den purely negative.

They could use something late game.

Bene Tleilaxu:
Slig mechanic (is this being removed?)
Plague mechanic.
Good espionage.
Unique religion.
Boosted priests from the Shrine.
Axolotl tanks (being tweaked).

I think this is a pretty good set. I'd really like to see Axolotl tanks with some kind of Immortality mechanic for gholas.

Fremen:
Sandrider melee and worker/settlers.
No access to vehicles, thopters.
Deathstills Ub.
Crysknife fighter URU (but effectively UU, since you can't possibly get relations good enough for them to trade you the resource before its obsolete).
Naib's Chosen URU.
Fedaykin.
Raider UU.

I think Fremen play pretty well.
Doing much more with them would probably require a lot of AI coding that we don't really have time for.
It would be nice if they didn't need suspensors to transport guardsmen units around, and if there were some way they could get decent anti-air cover without being able to build hornets, but no simple solution seems apparent.

Ix.
Ixian weapons unique resource mechanic.
Unique promotions for vehicles, mechanized trait.
Skunkworks building.
Mech units and URU (crawler, walker, spider, tarantula).
Decent overall.

More thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated.

Ordos in particular need something extra, they are the least interesting at the moment.
And Bene Geserit and Ecaz could use a bit more.

 

[Ahriman]

I realized, a bit late, that the thread subject should have been 1.9 BETA faction balance.
Please treat as such.

 

[Deliverator]

Thanks for this. It is useful to have this overview - it is something I was thinking of doing myself at some point. Will comment more later.

 

[Deliverator]

It would be nice if they didn't need suspensors to transport guardsmen units around, and if there were some way they could get decent anti-air cover without being able to build hornets, but no simple solution seems apparent.

How about we give Sandrider to Guardsman, give Fremen units some suitable bonus vs air units (it is hard to spot Fremen from the air - they are masters of desert camouflage) and then stop them from building Hornets and Suspensors. We might need to think up a few more units to fill some of the emptier techs. Water Guard is one role that is mentioned in the books if I remember.

I'm thinking of adding quite a powerful unique Sietch improvement for them that could compensate on the loss of air units and suspensors. This would require Caves, give +1 draft cap at the nearest city (my plan is to change the SDK to allow localized city draft caps) and perhaps +1w+1h+1c or even +2w+1h+1c. I like the idea of making the Fremen more about vast numbers of expendable troops.

 

[Ahriman]

How about we give Sandrider to Guardsman

I'm fine with this, but from memory David is not a fan.
We would also really need to test how the AI handled this.

give Fremen units some suitable bonus vs air units (it is hard to spot Fremen from the air - they are masters of desert camouflage)

Maybe. I think we want them to be fairly vulnerable to air units, it should be their one weakness in the desert. They already beat up suspensors (their melee units are higher strength) and they will beat up thopters if they have desert-crossing guardsmen.
What would be ideal would be a "miss" chance of some kind. We don't want to give them strength bonuses vs air - they shouldn't have an easy time dropping hornets. Bit it would be fantastic if an airstrike used against a sandrider desert on a desert tile had a 50% chance of just missing with no effect.

We might need to think up a few more units to fill some of the emptier techs. Water Guard is one role that is mentioned in the books if I remember.

Possibly, though its hard to think of appropriate roles, and it would be weird to have them at aircraft techs. It might be ok to just leave them with some emptier techs.

If we're doing all this, I'd also consider cutting off all siege units other than the mortar.
No rocket/missile launchers/assault cannons for Fremen.
And maybe make a weakened missile launcher UU, lower strength, the same city bombardment, but less collateral damage. Some kind of man-portable mortar equipment.

We would also have to make Siege units get sandrider in order to do away with transports.
And great people.

This would require Caves

As in: the building would require that the city have caves within its BFC? Seems doable.

give +1 draft cap at the nearest city (my plan is to change the SDK to allow localized city draft caps)

I'm personally a bit leery about this, but perhaps its just my playstyle.
I never really like drafting units, particularly in this mod where water is more scarce, since I'd usually rather have the population than the military unit.
I also worry about the AI over-drafting its cities into economic uselessness.
And worry about detracting from the Imperial Fealty civic, which allows drafting.

and perhaps +1w+1h+1c or even +2w+1h+1c

Where in the tech tree do you see this?

I like the idea of making the Fremen more about vast numbers of expendable troops.

This certainly happens to some extent in the late-game, as Fremen are unable to field the high strength scorpion units, so they have to rely on infantry.

The way Fremen work now, is that they are very powerful in the early-midgame - good growth, and they take a lot of land, but eventually they can weaken as aircraft and scorpions come into play more.
I think this isn't a bad concept.

 

[Folket]

I do not think Ordos need more. Given how much fun I had with spies playing Harkonnen, I think I will play Ordos next.

I would like to see some intresting victory condition for player thet adopts Arrakis Spice. As it is now I will always take Arrakis Paradise to not have to fight everyone to win the game.

 

[Ahriman]

But the existing Ordos UUs aren't that strong, and are available for only a very brief time. I think its pretty clear they need more; a couple of unique espionage missions isn't enough.

We have discussed a Spice victory condition here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=361163
Its worth thinking again about whether we could implement this.
Hard to balance though....

 

[Hex]

Hi @ all,

Atreides

The sonic tank sounds great for the Atreides, it's a stack softner, but with the suggestet changes in mind (see http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=378213) maybe give it withdrawl bonus ? Otherwise a few rockets units will render it useless or you need to do massiv suicide attacks, with don't fit the thema of the Atreides.

Harkonnen

As they use slave worker, maybe better change the unhealth to unhappyness ?
With the rigth ressources and buildings, this should work with smaller citys to.


Ordos

The deviator sounds nice, but I fear that could be exploided.

Like grouping 3 deviators and send them to attacking stacks. They get destroyed, but the stack has to halt or leave the three units behind, with could be picked of easy.

Wouldn't call it Saboteur academy, Ordos House School ?

The techno-scavenging ability is a great. I would make it a flat one, but it sounds very strong to me. You could build up a huge army, not carring for the research slider and recover from the loss due massive figthing.
Maybe make it gold, with works in the end at the same level, big army, research ist high and it can be counter with some spy missions.

Bene Gesserit

I don't know why the instructress was removed, aside from beeing to powerfull given nearly an promotion that soon. I found the thougth of the sisters teaching thier usefull puppets (I mean brave soldiers) the way, very fitting.

How about give them the instructress back, maybe at Weirding Way (don't know if I wrote it rigth, the tech in the religios line, with gives the promotion) and let it give this promotion to units ?

Ecaz

Don't know if they give thier soldiers combat drugs it in the books, so maybe that as a promotion from a building or tech, with lets you boots the streng of the unit, but it has the change to turn babarian, due to overuse of the drug ? Or there could be a chance that the units dies.

As traders, maybe some UU with must be importet from outworld ? Is there something in the books ?


Fremen

Not quit sure if its codeable, but instead of rocket units, the necessary tech could give a promotion with will give the same bonuses ?

The promotions could be very cheap or only usable for a kind of sandworm riding rocket infantry, with would come as first tier rocket unit.

I hope this helps.

Cheers

 

[Ahriman]

Thanks again Hex, feedback much appreciated.

The sonic tank sounds great for the Atreides, it's a stack softner, but with the suggestet changes in mind (see http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=378213) maybe give it withdrawl bonus ? Otherwise a few rockets units will render it useless or you need to do massiv suicide attacks, with don't fit the thema of the Atreides.

I think it would still be high enough strength that it could win fights, you wouldn't have to be suiciding it.

The collateral damage is mostly a "logical" bonus for how it got used in the games where it appeared; it had a sonic shockwave that would pass through multiple units in a straight line.
I don't see a logical reason why it would get a better withdrawal chance.

As they use slave worker, maybe better change the unhealth to unhappyness ?

We already have unhappiness with Harkonnen through the whipping effect on slavery civic. I think we want to get across both that their slaves are unhappy but also the wretched squalor of the Harkonnen industrial complexes.

The deviator sounds nice, but I fear that could be exploided.

Like grouping 3 deviators and send them to attacking stacks. They get destroyed, but the stack has to halt or leave the three units behind, with could be picked of easy.

I agree that its a hard thing to balance. What can make it even worse is if the AI doesn't even know to leave them behind,
We know from Fall from Heaven that stun effects like Blinding Light and Entangle are very powerful.

Wouldn't call it Saboteur academy, Ordos House School ?

I dunno, that name doesn't do much for me either. Any other ideas?

The techno-scavenging ability is a great. I would make it a flat one,

The problem with this, is that if its useful in the midgame, its far too powerful in the early game, and if its balanced in the early game, its useless for the rest of the game.

but it sounds very strong to me. You could build up a huge army, not carring for the research slider and recover from the loss due massive figthing.

I think we would need to be careful that this was not in fact possible.
The amount of beakers you got should never be really game changing.

Maybe make it gold, with works in the end at the same level, big army, research ist high and it can be counter with some spy missions.

I think if it gave gold then it would be much less flavorful. Its technological scavenging that is thematic for Ordos, not gold.

I don't know why the instructress was removed, aside from beeing to powerfull given nearly an promotion that soon

It was too powerful, hard to balance, and IMO out of flavor.
Bene Gesserit shouldn't be primarily about military power.
They already have a very strong stack booster with the Kwizatz projects, they don't need another making their armies even more unstoppable.

Ecaz
Don't know if they give thier soldiers combat drugs it in the books

Ecaz barely show up in Dune universe canon at all, we don't have much to go on here.

so maybe that as a promotion from a building or tech, with lets you boots the streng of the unit, but it has the change to turn babarian, due to overuse of the drug ? Or there could be a chance that the units dies.

I guess we could have some kind of FFH Boiling Blood clone, but I'm always suspicious about the AI's ability to use such things.

maybe some UU with must be importet from outworld

We're already giving them favorable terms on offworld goods.
I don't think we want units that have to be explicitly brought in from offworld (through the Guild transport mechanic), the AI doesn't use that mechanic very well.

Not quit sure if its codeable, but instead of rocket units, the necessary tech could give a promotion with will give the same bonuses ?

It would be codeable, we have the ability to have faction specific promotion requirements (eg the Atreides Ducal Guard). I'm not sure if this is a great way to go though; for example, I don't think that promotions can change the AI scripts on a unit. The rocket units have city defender and stack defender AIs; putting AA capabilities on a melee unit (which has city attack AI) wouldn't get them to change their AI behavior.
So I think we're probably better off leaving them as separate units.

 

[Hex]

Hi Ahriman

I don't see a logical reason why it would get a better withdrawal chance.

The idea behind the withdrawl was to give the sonic tank a better chance against rocket units, because of thier proposed 100% against vehicles. But if the plan is to give the tank a quit big strengh, this should not be necessary.

We already have unhappiness with Harkonnen through the whipping effect on slavery civic. I think we want to get across both that their slaves are unhappy but also the wretched squalor of the Harkonnen industrial complexes.

Okay good point, I rest my case then .

I dunno, that name doesn't do much for me either. Any other ideas?

As thier speciality is blowing things up, maybe Pyrotechnic Complex or as bad pun Blasting Agency

I think we would need to be careful that this was not in fact possible.
The amount of beakers you got should never be really game changing.

Definitly, thats why I am in for the flat beakers. If theres a way to limited the amount you can get by this way, to a fix amount of the complett cost of tech (like 10% or 20%) it could be either way. Or you could just make it a chance to scavage some parts, not every time.

I think if it gave gold then it would be much less flavorful. Its technological scavenging that is thematic for Ordos, not gold.

Okay, I have to admit, that when I first read this idea, I thougth it would be neat with hammers. How a about make it random and it can give on of both ? As you can't predict what you will get, you can't rely on it in a strategie. But either way there will be a nice benefit for you.

It was too powerful, hard to balance, and IMO out of flavor.
Bene Gesserit shouldn't be primarily about military power.
They already have a very strong stack booster with the Kwizatz projects, they don't need another making their armies even more unstoppable.

After playing a game with the Bene Gesserit yesterday and expirience the power of the Kwizatz projects I understand what you mean and draw back my suggestion.
As alternativ I would like to suggest a building with can be tailored to your needs. It could be called mothers counsil or mothers convent.
When finished you get the option to choose of one of the following: beakers or spy points or maintenace reduce or a traderoute or culture.
The idea is that you have a covent of mothers, which will do everything to optimize the city according to plans of the Sisterhood.
An other idea would be a building which will give benefits for having more than one religion in the city. But I don't know if thats exactly fitting for them.

Ecaz barely show up in Dune universe canon at all, we don't have much to go on here.

Maybe some more effort in the smuggling then ? I don't no if this is codeable, but how about a other smuggler unit with allows you to smuggle a ressource type from an other civ for a few rounds ? For balancing you must pay some gold per turn, to keep the smugglers going, with will be given to the one you stole from.

It would be codeable, we have the ability to have faction specific promotion requirements (eg the Atreides Ducal Guard). I'm not sure if this is a great way to go though; for example, I don't think that promotions can change the AI scripts on a unit. The rocket units have city defender and stack defender AIs; putting AA capabilities on a melee unit (which has city attack AI) wouldn't get them to change their AI behavior.
So I think we're probably better off leaving them as separate units.

Okay never mind then .

Cheers

 

[Ahriman]

The idea behind the withdrawl was to give the sonic tank a better chance against rocket units

Rocket units (the Mongoose trooper) should still be a decent counter to a sonic tank scorpion. There has to be *some* counter.

As thier speciality is blowing things up, maybe Pyrotechnic Complex or as bad pun Blasting Agency

Still don't really work for me. We can keep brainstorming.
Intelligence Agency, Covert Ops Center, Demolitions Training Facility.....
Still not great.

Definitly, thats why I am in for the flat beakers.

But what about the balanced earlygame/useless midgame issue?
If killing a 30 hammer unit gives you the same benefit as killing a 120 hammer unit, one of them is going to be too weak or too strong.

How a about make it random and it can give on of both ?

I think a tech scavenging ability should be about giving you tech. What is the main flavor or gameplay reason for giving production boosts?
I also worry that making it give random bonuses would reduce the transparency.

As alternativ I would like to suggest a building with can be tailored to your needs.

I'm not sure that trade or maintenance bonuses are thematic for BG, and anything with a choice like this would have to be hacked through an Event like the Landing Stage - the AI could never manage it optimally.
I would like to get across more some of the "We Exist But to Serve" philosophy. Maybe a school of some kind. Library UB, or University UB? I think an old version of this mod had a Bene Gesserit Academy as a UB university - maybe extra culture, or +2 priest GPPs?

Maybe some more effort in the smuggling then

Well, they have the Smuggler unit already.

smuggle a ressource type from an other civ for a few rounds

Interesting idea, but seems like a complex mechanic. It wouldn't be fun to have it used on you, and the AI wouldn't know how to use it.

Maybe we could give them a Guild Bank UB of some kind?

 

[Hex]

Rocket units (the Mongoose trooper) should still be a decent counter to a sonic tank scorpion. There has to be *some* counter.

Sure, I think I have to see the changes live, to lose my fear from the migthy rocket units .

Still don't really work for me. We can keep brainstorming.
Intelligence Agency, Covert Ops Center, Demolitions Training Facility.....
Still not great.

The background of the Ordos is like a cartel, they mostly hire mercenaries, so why not Black Ops Training Facility or Black Ops Agency or Secret Training Facility or Cartel Operation Center ?

But what about the balanced earlygame/useless midgame issue?
If killing a 30 hammer unit gives you the same benefit as killing a 120 hammer unit, one of them is going to be too weak or too strong.

Hmmm, in the earlygame you won't have a big army to kill that much units and the more the game goes on, the more units you get, but also the tech will get more expensiv. If it's possible to give the beakers after the hammers of a unit thats great, I am in. That makes for a nice challenge to hunt down the expensiv units.

I think a tech scavenging ability should be about giving you tech. What is the main flavor or gameplay reason for giving production boosts?
I also worry that making it give random bonuses would reduce the transparency.

The main flavor here for me, was the idea that when scavenging, you'll not only find new technologie, but also spare parts. The reduce of transparency was desired, because so it wouldn't been ascertainable how many units to kill for a tech.

I would like to get across more some of the "We Exist But to Serve" philosophy. Maybe a school of some kind. Library UB, or University UB? I think an old version of this mod had a Bene Gesserit Academy as a UB university - maybe extra culture, or +2 priest GPPs?

The extra culture or priest GPPs sounds okay for me.
As for the theme, because they train female members of other houses, the university would be better. Instead of priest GGPs, it would be flavor if it's produced nobel(woman) GGPs.
Name could be Bene Gesserit School (not a good on, I have to admit) or Covent School.

Interesting idea, but seems like a complex mechanic. It wouldn't be fun to have it used on you, and the AI wouldn't know how to use it.

Maybe we could give them a Guild Bank UB of some kind?

I feared so. I think it would be nice to make the spice gathering for the Ecaz more important. So why not give them a building with gives them spice dependent on the amount spice ressources thier opponents have. I have no idea how much spice is the average, but maybe that they get up to two or three spice ? If it's possible, a simpler way is, to make it dependent on how many fraktions have the Spice Civic activ.
Names could illigal spice market, smuggler market, black market.

Cheers

 

[Hex]

If it's possibel to give bonus according to the ressource owned by other civs, this would be a way of more "We Exist But to Serve" for the Bene Gesserit.

They could get a bonus for every civ that uses (trades with them) thier spezial ressource, which could be renamed in Sisterhood Training. This could enable a building for the other civs, named Bene Gesserit Alliance, with gives SP, Culture or one happyness or a mix of it. If the AI values the Sisterhood Training quit low, it'll require a lot of manipulation (speak political weddings) or bad trading deals to trade it with them.
It also would force the Bene Gesserit to avoid unnecessary wars.

Cheers

 

[Ahriman]

The background of the Ordos is like a cartel, they mostly hire mercenaries, so why not Black Ops Training Facility or Black Ops Agency or Secret Training Facility or Cartel Operation Center ?

These sound good. Maybe Combine something (I think they're a collective Combine organization).

The reduce of transparency was desired

I am of the strong belief that reducing transparency is never desirable. We would balance such an ability by having it not give too many beakers, not by hiding how many beakers it gives from the player.

spice dependent on the amount spice ressources thier opponents have

I worry that this kind of mechanic might not be fun. Benefits and penalties should come from things that you control (eg number of resources you have) not things that your opponents control (which are outside of your control).

Thanks again for all the feedback. Some comments from others would be helpful when they have a chance.

 

[ScrubbyTheKid]

(moved it to its own thread.. didnt really fit here)

 

[Ahriman]

Thanks for bumping this thread though, I think this is the main area we need to be looking towards a final v2.0.

 

[Folket]

I think it would make sense to make a new thread now that 1.9 is out.

 

[Ahriman]

I think its fine to stick with this one; its feedback and comments on the faction balanced as observed in 1.9, and what changes we should make for a final version.

 

[Folket]

I was just thinking that all the information in the thread is three months old so it might be better to start a new thread with up to date information.

 

[Ahriman]

Nothing much has changed in that time, so the summary above is still accurate AFAIK.