1 citizen = how many shields?

[Wai_Wai]

Hi.
Does anyone know how many shields 1 citizen can convert into (when we pop-rush buildings/units)?

Thanks.

 

[Puppeteer]

20 I believe, but rush costs are doubled (?) if there are no shields in the box already. I tried to find the War Academy article about pop rushing but don't see it.

Some tactics include disbanding a warrior to get a couple of shields in an empty shield box (city that just completed a build and is starting over) and then rushing a 20-shield build (archer); if necessary switch to a 40-shield build (barracks) and rush again, switch to 60-shield build (granary) and rush again...etc. to get the most efficient use of pop rushing.

Sometimes it may work better to short-rush something and finish it conventionally. I haven't figure out all the ins and outs but it's a fun learning process.

 

[Xerol]

Well, if a city's producing at least 10spt, then try to short-rush by at least that much. For example, say city X has 21 spt. I want to build a Modern Armor(120 shields). Short-rush a worker, then rush something that's 100 shields(on the same turn). Short-rushing the worker "eats up" most of the double-cost penalty. Then the 21 shields produced don't go to waste the next turn. It's a bit more work, but short rushing is a lot more efficient than brute-force full rushing.

 

[mikezang]

Here is answer for your question: Charis' Guide to Civ3 Micromanagement (1.17f)

Whipping (Despotic Rushing)
[This one got nerfed quite a bit in the 1.17f patch, but it's still useful]
The one value to remember here is 39. For 1 to 39 shields remaining to rush a structure or unit, the cost is the same, one citizen. For each 20 shields after that it's an additional citizen. There are two implications to this: i. Target pop-rushing with as close to 39 shields as possible, and no more. ii. The next 'magic' number is 79. From 40-59 the cost is two citizens, and for 60-79 shields the cost to rush in one turn is three citizens. BUT, by taking one extra turn that cost can often be reduced to two citizens. How? If there is unit available that costs 39 shields, switch to this unit and rush it. Immediately (or at least before the turn is over), change back to the desired unit, which will have 40 shields left. Wait one more turn, for the number left to be 39 or less, and rush the unit to completion. This can be chained down if there are intermediate units to build, e.g. 119 -> 80, wait for 79, rush to 40, wait one, rush to complete. Three citizens instead of five. In games where I've been despot whipping like mad, I've done things like purposefully build NO library (40 shields for scientific civs) in my cities so that I would always have a handy 39 to rush. If you have NO 40 shield unit to build, it's impossible to get 79 complete in two turns and save a citizen.

 

[SJ Frank]

Here is answer for your question: Charis' Guide to Civ3 Micromanagement (1.17f)

Charis' guide is a bit out dated. Forced labor was really powerful then. The later patches tuned it down quite a bit.

Here is the current value, straight from the C3C editor (yes, that means you can change it too )

Each citizen, starting from the first, is worth 20 shields.

 

[Wai_Wai]

20 I believe, but rush costs are doubled (?) if there are no shields in the box already. I tried to find the War Academy article about pop rushing but don't see it.

It seems the actual rushing forumla is a bit complicated than a simple conversion rate.

I tried to pop-rush a worker (10 shields normally, 5 shields in accerlated production mode) when there's no shield in the box. I couldn't rush at all. My city is size 3. One citizen is worth 20 shields, so even if the rush costs are dobuled, I should be still able to rush it.

I wonder rushing is impossible if there's no shield in the box (maybe it is used to avoid producing anything in 1 turn).

 

[Wai_Wai]

Charis' guide is a bit out dated. Forced labor was really powerful then. The later patches tuned it down quite a bit.

Here is the current value, straight from the C3C editor (yes, that means you can change it too )

Each citizen, starting from the first, is worth 20 shields.

Thanks for your info.
Altho the formula seems not to be that simple, the info is definitel useful when I plan my build progress.

 

[SJ Frank]

It seems the actual rushing forumla is a bit complicated than a simple conversion rate.

I tried to pop-rush a worker (10 shields normally, 5 shields in accerlated production mode) when there's no shield in the box. I couldn't rush at all. My city is size 3. One citizen is worth 20 shields, so even if the rush costs are dobuled, I should be still able to rush it.

I wonder rushing is impossible if there's no shield in the box (maybe it is used to avoid producing anything in 1 turn).

There is one additional rule: that you can never kill more than 50% of your citizens in one rush.

In your example, your city is size 3, but whipping that worker would cost 2 lives, so its a no-no. (not to mention the pop lost from the worker itself. I have no idea how those two effect would work together).

 

[Puppeteer]

@mikezang, yes that is the article I was thinking of but didn't find it because "pop", "rush" and "whip" aren't in the title. I could never get 39 shields per citizen, so that confused me.

@SJ Frank, I guess that's why I can't get 39 shields, but it seems like there have been times where I had shields in the box and couldn't whip 20s per citizen, either, but maybe that had to do with your "can't whip more than half pop" rule

I don't think I've ever tried pop rushing a worker or settler.

Going off topic a bit, I see in that screenshot that gold rushing is 4g per shield. I could've sworn it's 2g per shield. Does one of the governments get reduced rate rushing?

 

[eldar]

Rushing has always been 4g/shield. Are you confused with unit upgrades in Vanilla/PtW, where it's 2g/shield?

 

[Wai_Wai]

@mikezang, yes that is the article I was thinking of but didn't find it because "pop", "rush" and "whip" aren't in the title. I could never get 39 shields per citizen, so that confused me.

As SJ Frank pointed out, the article is a bit "old". And the author has reduced the power of pop-rush. So it is no longer 39 shields. It is 20 now (C3C).

 

[Puppeteer]

Rushing has always been 4g/shield. Are you confused with unit upgrades in Vanilla/PtW, where it's 2g/shield?

Now that I think about it I'm probably thinking of SMAC where the last few minerals (shileds) are 2 energy (gold) each. I used to do a lot of partial accelerations (hurries) in SMAC so I was calculating values a lot whereas in CivIII I just hit the rush button and decide if the given amount is worth it.

 

[Wai_Wai]

To sum up, the rules of whipping / pop-rush are (C3C):
- 1 citizen is worth 20 shields in pop-rush
- no pop-rush is allowed if the shield box is completely empty
- no more than 50% of your citizens can be killed in a single pop-rush.
- however you may pop-rush several times at the same turn (by the tricks of switching to different production order) and citizen loss can be higher than 50 of total population

Confirm if possible.
Any more rules to add?

 

[rysingsun]

ill confirm those rules.

furthermore when rushing workers or settlers the same rules apply but additional population will be lost at the beginning of the turn when the unit actually is made available. for example if i have 10 shields in the box toward a settler and a size 3 city i can rush the settler with the expenditure of one additional population. this will leave my city at size two with a settler which is "complete" but unable to be "born" until the city grows back to size 3. so beware of this error.

keep in mind as well that pop-rushing causes a 20 turn happiness penalty. this penalty is cumulative if you rush more than once within a 20 turn period. killing off population does NOT kill off their memory of this action. you could pop rush a size 20 all the way down to size one if you wanted and they will have more unhappiness than you ever thought a size one city could have. for example a marketplace and six luxuries might fail to make this one citizen content. drafting has a similar effect.

...at least im pretty sure of all the above. if someone has doubts about what ive said feel free to correct me.

 

[sorky]

To sum up, the rules of whipping / pop-rush are (C3C):
- 1 citizen is worth 20 shields in pop-rush
- no pop-rush is allowed if the shield box is completely empty
- no more than 50% of your citizens can be killed in a single pop-rush.
- however you may pop-rush several times at the same turn (by the tricks of switching to different production order) and citizen loss can be higher than 50 of total population

Confirm if possible.
Any more rules to add?

You could pop-rush with an empty box. He couldn't pop-rush his worker because he had a 3 pop city. He needs 2 pop to rush the worker so he needs minimum a 4 pop town. You could disband a worker for 2s and pop rush the worker for only 1 citizen anyway

You can't pop-rush when there is resistants (or a riot...) iirc.