(1-NS) Rework on the Trailblazer promotion line

[Anarcomu]

This proposal is a counterproposal of this one : Proposal: Replace double movement promotions.

I'm trying to clarify what I understand of the proposal above, whilst adding a bit of my own touch to it (if you feel I shouldn't do a proposal, feel free to remove this one devs).

So, here it is :
All Recon Units have base 3 moves and lose "ignore terrain cost" promotion.

• Trailblazer 1 : +1 movement, ignore movement penalties on forest/jungle/hills, +20% CS on those terrain.
• Trailblazer 2 : +1 movement, ignore movement penalties on desert/snow/rivers, +20% CS on desert and snow and no penalty for attacking over rivers.
• Trailblazer 3 : ZOC cost +1 mov instead of ending turn, can cross mountain and embark, +20% CS on mountain and better embark defense.
• (optional) Scouting 3 : no longer provide +1 movement, grants unobstructed vision instead.

The objective is to still make the scout good at scouting, whilst removing gamey double movement, becoming as fast in open space, and keeping the trailblazer line spirit intact.
The "ZOC cost +1 mov instead of ending turn" is here because I believe it whould be too strong to have a full ZOC ignore, especially for pillaging and worker snatching. Don't know if it is codeable. Scouting 3's +1 movement would feel blank, so I reworked it.

Edit : add bold, icons, typo.
Edit 2 : replaced sight level (flat terrain count as being in a hill, and being in a hill count as being in a mountain, line-of-sight wise) with unobstructed vision, for clarity.

 

[pineappledan]

That 5 speed very quickly, which is a lot. Both of the proposals also water down the scouting I/II/III leaf promotions quite a bit, because +1 movement on a 2 move unit is huge, but on a unit with 5 moves already, a 6th is pretty superfluous.

I will note that this change, as proposed, is a buff to Pathfinder/Scout and a nerf to Explorer/Commando.

Adding a new ZOC ability is new code, on top of everything else, which is a tall order. While ignoring certain terrains/features is also new code, it has already been done (eg. Incan UA), while adding a +1 movement penalty on ZOC would be entirely new.

Here is what I propose:
All Recon Units have base 3 moves (affects Pathfinder, Scout, Paratrooper, Special Forces, XCOM. Explorer and Commando are Unaffected)

• Trailblazer 1 : +1 Sight. +15%CS in Rough terrain. ignore movement penalties on forest, jungle, Marsh, and hills.
• Trailblazer 2 : +1 moves. Ignore movement penalties from desert, snow, and rivers. +15% CS on desert and snow, and no penalty for attacking over rivers.
• Trailblazer 3 : Ignores ZOC, can cross mountain and embark, +10% CS Outside friendly terrain.

Other promotions:

• Scouting 1(Available at TB 2 and Survival 2): +1 Sight
• Scouting 2: +1 moves
• Scouting 3: removed
• Altitude Training (Free Promotion from Kilimanjaro): +10% CS on Hills (remove double movement on Hills)

- The original proposal gives 20% CS on the valid terrain. I think this is too much, because it undercuts Survivalism's +25% defense.
- Also the way it is worded in the OP, you would get double bonus (+40%) on a forested hill. A Rough Terrain bonus is more appropriate and would fix this overlap.
- Even with this newer, weakened proposal, a Desert Hill outside friendly land still would give +40%
- Nerfing Altitude training has been a long time coming, and this sounds like a good time to do it
- With the mainline promotions giving vision and movement now, I don't think there is much room for having an entire 3 promotions on the Scouting leaf; It's too many of the same bonuses.
- I like that this would preserve the double movement on woodsman. Iroquois scouts get double moves in forest for free, and then they got it again with TBI, so this clears up a repetition there. Unfortunately there is now an overlap with Inca's free hill movement.

Maybe I make this another counterproposal?

 

[Rekk]

Maybe I make this another counterproposal?

Yes.

Note that mechanically, marshes are more similar to snow and desert than they are forests and hills.

 

[pineappledan]

Note that mechanically, marshes are more similar to snow and desert than they are forests and hills.

Because they don't block vision?

My main reason for putting it on TB I was where they are found. Marshes are on grass/plains and found on isolated tiles, unlike Desert and Snow which are broad swathes of terrain.

 

[Rekk]

And therefore aren't considered rough terrain, yeah.

I think it would be more interesting if there were small pockets that recon needed to navigate around, but since it'd only be for one level anyway, it doesn't matter all that much.

Also, the Rough Terrain combat bonus sounds like it should occur in marshes, because marshes are grouped in with the rest of the rough terrain, but it won't be.

 

[Anarcomu]

I personally don't like the sight on trailblazer, since it makes the sight on scouting feel like a weaker promotion. Also I believe that giving an improved line of sight (like I proposed) would need new code, but this would give very good line of sight in forested hills, one that no other units could provide.
Also I completely forgot marshes, they indeed would fit well in both TB 1 or 2.

 

[Anarcomu]

And i indeed intended to not give stacking CS, ie. thought of a desert hill or forest hill to give a 20%CS total, not 40%. However most movement bonus could be put on TB 1 & 2, and CS and the mountain/sea on TB 3.

 

[pineappledan]

It would need new code, yes. There is an ability that fighters have that gives unobstructed vision in a 6 tile radius, but it is tied to the unit and not a promotion. I use that ability for my Airship unit line in one of my mods.

+1 sight is still weaker than giving 5 moves in the first 2 levels. This is why I changed scouting I and II to be +1 sight and moves respectively, and removed Scouting III. That is a potential +2 vision and +2 moves in comparison to your proposed +3 vision and +2 moves, just in a different order.

Overall, I think your proposed tree is too strong, and deprecates the Survivalism line as a result, but I think it's close.

 

[ma_kuh]

+1 for Marsh being included in River-related promotions. It'd be a separate proposal, but Amphibious applying to River is something that makes sense to me, and getting ahead of the game and tying it in with Trailblazer 2's river bonuses would align with that.

 

[Anarcomu]

+1 sight is still weaker than giving 5 moves in the first 2 levels. This is why I changed scouting I and II to be +1 sight and moves respectively, and removed Scouting III. That is a potential +2 vision and +2 moves in comparison to your proposed +3 vision and +2 moves, just in a different order.

I actually proposed to left scouting 1 & 2 with +1 sight, and changing scouting 3 to give +1 sight level, aka easier to benefit from sight but not gaining more sight. Will edit OP to unobstructed vision instead of sight level for clarity.

 

[Anarcomu]

So I came up with something that might be more balanced. I don't know if I should change the OP, add the suggestion to the OP or make a second proposal.
Anyway, I'm gonna wait for feedbacks first :

All Recon Units have base 3 moves (and lose "ignore terrain cost" promotion).

• Trailblazer 1 : Ignore movement penalties on forest/jungle/hills.
• Trailblazer 2 : Ignore movement penalties on desert/snow/rivers/marshes, no penalty for attacking over rivers, ignore ZOC.
• Trailblazer 3 : +1 movement, can cross moutains and embark, +20%, stronger embark.

• Scouting 1(Available at TB 2 and Survival 2): +1 Sight
• Scouting 2: +1 sight
• Scouting 3: +1 movement or unobstructed vision (if not too hard to code).

That 5 speed very quickly, which is a lot

Actually, you get 4 movement on forest/jungle/desert (and snow, but you rarely settle there), accounting for the double speed ; paired with scouting 3, your scouts can move 6 forest/jungle, and pillage a lot...
And you get up to 8 once you hit the explorer. Sooo 5 speed without doubling doesn't look like a lot in comparison. The only real change is that it would apply everywhere instead of being terrain-specific, and even with the change, plains would still be at a disadvantage since there wouldn't be feature to block mounted from killing your recon. So even at 5 moves, I wouldn't call recon unit to be that quicker compared to now.

 

[Recursive]

Proposal failed due to lack of sponsorship on October 19, 2022.