1 unit per hex: failed experiment

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by ohioastronomy, Oct 3, 2010.

  1. jeffreyac

    jeffreyac Mostly Harmless

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    I do have a question.... People keep talking about 150 units on the map. If I try to run with more than a token defensive force (say, a defensive unit for evey other city) plus a small offensive force of about 6 units, then a couple of workers, the maintenance cost kills me. I can't imagine being able to field 50, let alone 150 units... am I doing something wrong, or are we exxagerating to make a point with this?

    (Was actually depressed when I realized that my plan to form a carrier task force of a carrier, 3 planes, a BB or two and somw screening DD's and subs would pretty much bankrupt my entire budget for a military...)
     
  2. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    I agree with the OP, which makes a good and articulate constructive criticism.
    I especially agree about the scale and clutter problems, which both make the game tedious and damage the suspension of disbelief.
     
  3. MkLh

    MkLh King

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    It's not necessary true that 1upt slows things. Civ4 Deity late game was notoriously slow because of the insane stacks AIs had. Now there are less units altogether and less to process for CPU.

    In practice, limited stacks would mean in you'd need to organize all your troops in small stacks. Sounds like tedious micro managing to me.
     
  4. Zelig

    Zelig Beep Boop

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    You would expect that, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

    Partially because pathfinding is so godawful bad now.
     
  5. ohioastronomy

    ohioastronomy King

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    If you zoom out and watch the AI during turns you can see that they spend a lot of time shuffling units around, largely because any single move sets off a chain reaction. It's hard for me to explain why 5 is so much slower than 4 otherwise. Could be wrong though!

    Herding an army down a road, or getting 4 workers to build a 12-hex long road, require extreme micro already. You could give people tools to merge armies together for movement, for example, which would help. I think that the logistical problems associated with movement under the new system are the heart of the problem with it, truth be told.
     
  6. enfo

    enfo Chieftain

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    Features in CIV5 such as 1UPT and the Giant Death Robot came about because the developers listened to these forums. The OP presents some very good arguments against 1UPT, but the moral of the story is that there will always be a percent of the player base that will find fault with anything.
     
  7. TheBlackAdderBG

    TheBlackAdderBG Chieftain

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    I agree.Never play on hardest difficulties,but having a 10-15 units for attack and 2-3 units in my cities is all i can manage to get before maintenance kill me.I often play on archipelago maps and having 9-10 battleships + 9-10 other naval units is enough and AI play with similar numbers too.And most important is that AI can play naval warfare.
     
  8. charon2112

    charon2112 King

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    1UPT and ranged units are one of the best things to ever happen to Civ.
     
  9. MkLh

    MkLh King

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    No it's not, and AI in Civ4 certainly didn't need 10:1 ratio in troops - 3:1 was already a big threat. But obviously stacks helped there.
     
  10. Slaists

    Slaists Chieftain

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    OP: a good post and good, valid reasoning.

    I played one game in CIV 5 and I agree with most of what you are observing. Basically, the AI in CIV 5 has no idea how to deal with the no-stacking limit. My little "army of doom": 3 archers + 2 stone-age warriors were successful at taking over cities well into the 1400's... AD, mind you.
     
  11. teks

    teks Prince

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    Civ5's strongest feature, and saving grace is 1upt, and hexes. Combat is fun now.

    A lot of people are suggesting a compromise. Let us just stack a couple units. Sadly this would completely destroy the entire theory behind 1upt, because everyone will just stack pikemen, and crossbow men together, and wala horses are useless.

    You know how water units embark. if road systems played to a similar tune it could fix things. Units traversing road turn into a caravan, and can combine, overlap, or what have you. Only problem is one surprise attack, and blamo. Your up <snip> creek.

    I don't play small maps, but I bet 1upt is much harder on the small maps.

    Moderator Action: Swearing is not allowed on these forums, thanks! :)
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  12. boredatwork

    boredatwork Warlord

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    I agree that as a wargame Civ5 is bland and broken - however I disagree that 1UPT is necessarily incompatible with a civ style game as a whole.

    I think all of your points basically relate back to your number #4 and the size of the game. Not that the concept of overlaying tactical combat onto a strategic map is flawed in the context of a GAME (as opposed to a simulation), but rather they didn't make the strategic map sufficiently large enough to provide real operational depth.

    I made a post back in March where I defended 1UPT:

     
  13. Oolon

    Oolon Chieftain

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    I'm actually really intrigued by this idea. Let's go with it.

    A hex can hold four military units. They can be any four mixed units, or specialist units, or whatever.

    Have you guys ever played Gemcraft? There was a process in which you would take various colors of gems and combine them to enhance damage or enhance special abilities, or combine abilities.

    Blue gems would freeze, so combining blue gems would give you a specialty gem that froze longer. Red gems would do splash damage, so combining red gems would increase the splash radius. If you combined a blue and a red gem, however, you'd increase damage, decrease the freezing and the splash, but combine the freezing and the splash effect together to get freezing splash damage. Less effective than its pure color brethren at their specialized task, but more effective in a new task. The game became about ways of maximizing these gem upgrades to get the effects you wanted.

    Adding cavalry in a small stack would give you bonus to infantry. Adding spearmen a bonus to cavalry. But having a mixed force with cavalry would be less effective against infantry and slower than a specialized, fast-moving, exclusive cavalry force would be, but the decision to create specialist stacks would be dynamic and you could take a turn or two to reform stacks.

    I'll investigate what modding something like this would involve, but I'm going to write it out in a design document for later and see what I can do about it. I like the small stack ideas, though, but I would want to add something more to it than just four units occupying the same hex to eliminate traffic jams. It would become a "one army per hex" system.
     
  14. enfo

    enfo Chieftain

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    This is an awesome suggestion.

    Allow for unlimited civilian stacking. Keep 1UPT with military units. Military units have two new features :

    1) Mobilize/Deploy. Turn into a civilian unit that travel through roads and can stack with other civilian units.

    2) Blockade/Stop Blockade. Toggle a mode to block all other units from passing through civilian or military, or allow all non military units to pass through.
     
  15. Akka

    Akka Moody old mage.

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    The Civ4 mod Fall From Heavens 2 had a very interesting take on this : a promotion, that made it so that a unit would attack the WEAKEST unit in a stack, rather than the strongest. Made for a big change in the strategic decisions in the game.
     
  16. Monadenia

    Monadenia Chieftain

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    This seems more like an issue with the turn-based nature of Civ. You have the exact same problem with stacking. I don't see an easy way around this without abandoning the sequential turn-based nature of Civ.
     
  17. mike_cf

    mike_cf Chieftain

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    If available you can soften up with some siege. If you are playing with RoM, just use archer's ranged attack for softening :D
     
  18. pi-r8

    pi-r8 Luddite

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    Yeah I agree completely with this. I guess that's why 1UPT works OK early in the game, and at lower levels- the map is much less cluttered. But as the game goes on, or as you bump up the difficulty, you quickly reach the point of saturation where every single tile on the front is covered with a unit, and no maneuver is possible. Or for the AI, every single tile in their empire gets covered.
     
  19. AlpsStranger

    AlpsStranger Jump jump on the tiger!

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    I still like and cling to hope for 1upT, but I could accept a return to SoD. However, for me to accept it gladly, I would demand one or more of the following.

    1) Allow collateral damage to work in an unlimited manner. It may still be limited to getting the stack down to 20% health, but it damages the *entire* stack. Even if the stack is huge.

    2) Only allow a medic to service a fixed number of units.

    3) Still try to limit numbers. I actually like the higher hammer costs, etc. So the "Neo-SoD" would be 10 units instead of 55.

    4) Even with SoD throw the old annihilation combat overboard. Single combats shouldn't guarantee death for one side. This would allow a Civ5-like dynamic where keeping units around mattered a lot more than just building more.

    5) Cities should defend themselves and have garrisons just like now, even if those garrisons are so much larger. I never realized how awesome it would be to actually *see* my city, and not some jackass Godzilla Archer.

    6) Super medic was lame. Get rid of it.
     
  20. boredatwork

    boredatwork Warlord

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    I think that would only reverse the problem, not eliminate it.

    If I have a single chariot against a stack of 5 pikemen and 1 axeman it doesn't seem anymore right that it can ignore the pikemen and charge the axeman than it did when it was facing 5 axemen and 1 pikeman that the 1 pikeman would always be in the position to meet the charge.
     

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