(1-VT) First tier resources visible but not usable at game start

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rkkn

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"First tier" referring to resources revealed with a first level tech. So this is fish, deer, bison, stone, sheep, cattle, horses.
They would be visible on the map but provide no extra yields or possible improvements until the appropriate tech is researched.

Purpose:
Remove early game random guessing or gambling, in favor of player choice/planning. Presently one might, say, make the decision to research animal husbandry as their first or second tech because they guess that it would reveal some nearby resources. Then it may or may not turn out to reveal anything in range. I don't think this sort of guessing should be part of the game. Game starts are already sufficiently random. The outcome of player choices need not also be random. This also affects choice of capital placement.

Also a thematic reason, in that all of these things are very visible to uneducated people. Unlike, say, uranium, where it's buried underground and you might not know it's anything special even if you saw it, it requires no education to see a herd of bison and know that these large animals are valuable: they have a lot of meat and hide on them. How to actually get your hands on it is another story, however. That part requires some know how (tech). At any rate they're all much more visible than most luxuries, at least. It doesn't make any sense for them to be hidden.


Previous proposal:
At the start of the game, you get to see where all the resources are, but it goes back to normal once you settle so that you still have to unlock them.
 
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Rekk

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Will be annoying to code the AI for this.

Do you not settle your second city until you have researched all of the resource revealing techs?
 

rkkn

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Do you not settle your second city until you have researched all of the resource revealing techs?
Excluding iron, it's close. Can't really say one way or the other, but I do usually try to have them researched. Like "let me research animal husbandry so I can know where to drop this settler" is often part of the thought process.
 

Zanteogo

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At the start of the game, you get to see where all the resources are, but it goes back to normal once you settle so that you still have to unlock them.

This would remove early game random guessing or gambling. Presently one might, say, make the decision to research animal husbandry as their first or second tech because they guess that it would reveal some nearby resources. Then it may or may not turn out to reveal anything in range. I don't think this sort of guessing should be part of the game. Game starts are already sufficiently random. The outcome of player choices need not also be random. This also affects choice of capital placement.

I'm not a fan of this.

I would be willing to consider making more basic resources visible, but not useable until unlocked. (sort of how luxury resources work now) Having them disappear is gamey.

I would even be cool with an advanced option that unhides all resources for the whole game. (not that anyone should have an issue with an optional feature anyways)
 

nekokon

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I'm also ok with it being an advanced option for ppl who like to pick a certain start that required unrevealed resource (like certain pantheon or civ) . Personally though, I think not having them shown at the start would allow player to have some interesting strategic choices, like delaying animal husbandry to finish farm triangle (if it's still a thing, hasn't been doing those since I came back).
 

Rekk

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This is very close to "bonus and ancient strategic resources are revealed at farming," which is way easier to implement, and there's no AI work to be done.
 

pineappledan

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I can already tell you this will be a downvote from me. It's too artificial.

I know a few players already play with all resources visible from turn 1 as an option.
 

rkkn

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I would be willing to consider making more basic resources visible, but not useable until unlocked.
well if this works then that's actually better. I remembered someone saying there's some kind of technical issue with it
 

Tekamthi

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I'm leaning towards PD's take on this one.

That said, I could be persuaded that resources that in irl show up on surface of terrain, would be indicated to player from turn 1 as some kind of mystery resource, without revealing exactly what they are. I wouldn't include resources typically found deep underground, however, nor any others that required some irl knowledge and tech just to find. Some like furs, maybe I'd reveal before tech but only after player moved unit through tile. All this would probably take a lot of code though for minor gameplay effect.
 

Rekk

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I'm leaning towards PD's take on this one.

That said, I could be persuaded that resources that in irl show up on surface of terrain, would be indicated to player from turn 1 as some kind of mystery resource, without revealing exactly what they are. I wouldn't include resources typically found deep underground, however, nor any others that required some irl knowledge and tech just to find. Some like furs, maybe I'd reveal before tech but only after player moved unit through tile. All this would probably take a lot of code though for minor gameplay effect.
This doesn't have the desired effect of knowing what techs you need to research.
 

Tekamthi

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This doesn't have the desired effect of knowing what techs you need to research.
True, I was focused on the capital placement concern in OP, which I do have some sympathy for. However, while its already somewhat inherent to the tech tree, an additional feature to enable prioritizing research based on some kind of foreknowledge of an unknown technology's purpose is beyond my tolerance for abstraction.
 

rkkn

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prioritizing research based on some kind of foreknowledge of an unknown technology's purpose is beyond my tolerance for abstraction.
I definitely don't see it that way. Realistically speaking, it'd be more like your tribe seeing all these animals around them and deciding to prioritize figuring out how to make use of them. It's not like they'd be invisible in reality. They are there and very clearly an abundant resource that you just don't know how to use. It's far more realistic if you can see them. And more historically accurate. Like the ancient americans that lived on the great plains weren't blindly choosing how to advance. They saw all those herds of bison and focused on them.

though it's a little different for iron
 
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Tekamthi

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I definitely don't see it that way. Realistically speaking, it'd be more like your tribe seeing all these animals around them and deciding to prioritize figuring out how to make use of them. It's not like they'd be invisible in reality. They are there and very clearly an abundant resource that you just don't know how to use.

though it's a little different for iron
that's a fair take. I do enjoy the moment of discovering a new resource though and having to shift my plans to get access; minor gripe but I'd miss that.
 

rkkn

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though it's a little different for iron
which suggests that it should probably be left out of this.
and even though it's technically an ancient era resource, it isn't actually usable until classical
 

azum4roll

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Note that revealing resources early also provides access to higher tile yields at start, which significantly speeds up the game.
 

rkkn

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Note that revealing resources early also provides access to higher tile yields at start, which significantly speeds up the game.
Indeed. the goal behind my suggestion is to allow the player to know where these resources are and plan accordingly without adding those increased yields.

The proposal in the first post/title is not actually ideal. What would be ideal is having the resources always visible but do nothing---no increased yields, no improvements possible, no strategic quantities given---until the tech is researched, at which point they then provide the normal benefits. I recall seeing that that isn't doable, but if it is indeed possible then I definitely want to change the proposal to that.
 

ma_kuh

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Hiding the resources after the fact seems gamey, but I think revealing ancient era bonus resources isn't too bad, most of them are already reasonably "knowable" to an ancient civ: they're mainly edible animals and strong construction materials.

Note that revealing resources early also provides access to higher tile yields at start, which significantly speeds up the game.
Is there a way to tie the tile bonus to the research, instead of giving it for free?

For those saying revealing resources you can't use is anti-immersive, how does showing luxuries compare to this? It feels more like a standardization to have them behave the same, either hiding everything or showing most/everything.
 

nekokon

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I don't think tying the tile bonus to research is hard, as we already have the same interaction from university to jungle. Basically just reduce the base bonus from hidden resources (and show them from turn 1), then give it back after the tech is researched.
Still prefer this to be an advanced option rather than base VP. I sometimes do want those very specific starts to quickly test out new stuffs without tons of resetting, but definitely not all the time.
 
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